朱恐龍
朱恐龍

2007第十屆台北文學獎事件網友投票結果! (38523 views)
     

這場投票者來自於33個不同的國家和區域,有超過七千個不重複IP投票。

在扣除大量出現投票的動態IP之後,實際上的投票數共計10894票:

有9282個投票,佔總投票數85.2%的票數認為:在引起此次爭議之後,第十屆台北文學獎青春組小說類佳作不應該頒與《顛倒》一作。

有1612個投票,佔總投票數14.8%的票數認為:在引起此次爭議之後,第十屆台北文學獎青春組小說類佳作應該頒與《顛倒》一作。

如果你要問我的看法?

看法很簡單。 我依舊不相信只因為是專家,就有資格在不公開討論、不公開過程的狀況下,片面的逃避對這場爭議提供意見的職責。

在兩篇相關文章中,我的部落格中出現了超過一千一百篇以上的相關討論,或許我不同意你的看法,但我認為你願意公開表達意見的誠意和努力遠勝過這些評審。

我個人的意見也不過是9282個意見的其中一個而已,並沒有比較偉大,也沒有比較渺小。

這是10894個意見,1181篇討論,對抗5個沈默的評審,對抗1個只願「到此為止」的主辦單位。

或許這次5個人的意見、第十屆台北文學獎的結果無法被撼動,沈默的五個人可以抵抗踴躍努力的一萬個看法。

但我們並沒有失敗,不會永遠是這樣的。

我們立下了一個範例,讓未來的作者、評審、文學獎的主辦單位都知道,這樣的爭議,可以有一萬人願意表達意見,可以有9282個意見不同意這樣的作品可以得獎,就算你把獎頒了,作者獎領了,網路也不會忘記這個獎項有9282個意見是不認同,是反對的。

未來的作者,在寫出類似狀況的作品參加文學獎前,他們看到這次第十屆台北文學獎的結果,會停下來多想一想。

未來的評審,在給予狀況類似的作品評審和獎項前,他們看到這次第十屆台北文學獎的結果,會停下來多想一想。

未來的主辦單位,在決定頒獎,在決定「到此為止」之前,他們看到這次第十屆台北文學獎的結果,會停下來多想一想。

1181篇討論和眾多的其他部落格作者的文章中,我看到結構主義,看到文本分析,我看到網路調查的抽絲剝繭,看到對正義的思考、對民主和民粹的挑戰。如果看到這樣百花齊放的討論,你還能認為群眾是無知的,這是群眾暴力,那你的看法,也不過就反映了你對自己能力的想法而已。

但即使你認為身為群眾一份子的你是無知的,是沒有智慧的,但我還是相信你跟這些專家有同樣的資格對這件事情做出評論,表達意見,決定對錯。

如果這樣,你還是決定要讓專家宰制你的看法,讓沈默的5個專家勝過10894個意見,1181篇討論和眾多的部落格文章......那是你家的事。

但那不是我要的世界,也不是我想要生活的未來。

我要往前走,你可以選擇留下來。

Lucifer

感謝正反雙方的投入、犧牲和努力,讓這件事情變成一個值得紀念的事件。

感謝各位網友的厚愛,這篇文章出來之後,一定又要激起許多人的創作靈感來寫部落格了吧!

科科~~~

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迴響(2059)

迴響 from: 永 [訪問者]
受教了
2008-03-04 @ 23:13
迴響 from: Mr.DP [訪問者]
文章似乎出錯??

有9282個投票,佔總投票數85.2%的票數認為:在引起此次爭議之後,第十屆台北文學獎青春組小說類佳作不應該頒與《顛倒》一作。

有1612個投票,佔總投票數14.8%的票數認為:在引起此次爭議之後,第十屆台北文學獎青春組小說類佳作不應該頒與《顛倒》一作。
2008-03-04 @ 23:19
迴響 from: 阿侑 [訪問者]
2008-03-04 @ 23:20
迴響 from: 阿侑 [訪問者]
沒錯阿
否為85.202863961...%
是為14.797136038...%
2008-03-04 @ 23:26
迴響 from: 阿侑 [訪問者]

是應該頒與《顛倒》一作
2008-03-04 @ 23:28
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
唉呀,阿宅難免會出錯~~~

Lucifer
2008-03-04 @ 23:33
迴響 from: 路人辛 [訪問者]
紅色恐龍果然機車到爆!

來領便當了~~~~~~鏘鏘鏘~~~~
2008-03-04 @ 23:34
迴響 from: 哦 [訪問者] · http://www.wretch.cc/blog/pets0905
還真是很難理解那15%的人在想什麼呢

2008-03-04 @ 23:36
迴響 from: Angelo [訪問者] · http://angelosu.blogspot.com
有9282個投票,佔總投票數85.2%的票數認為:在引起此次爭議之後,第十屆台北文學獎青春組小說類佳作不應該頒與《顛倒》一作。

有1612個投票,佔總投票數14.8%的票數認為:在引起此次爭議之後,第十屆台北文學獎青春組小說類佳作不應該頒與《顛倒》一作。

所以是第二句抄襲了第一句,但是又忘了改 XD
2008-03-04 @ 23:37
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
最帥的就是我還是親手打的,這樣也他媽的能夠打錯.....

Lucifer

太久沒認真說話實在不習慣~~~
2008-03-04 @ 23:40
迴響 from: 哦 [訪問者] · http://www.wretch.cc/blog/pets0905
哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈
不是複製的喔
怎麼會這麼好笑
2008-03-04 @ 23:49
迴響 from: Mr.DP [訪問者]
話說對於這次事件,我個人還是認為專業的確有專業
的意義。在某些議題上專業的人士考慮與判斷的確比
大眾的認知的來的實在。

但在道德與社會倫理上面還是因該由大眾的認知來作
為最大考量。這件事情絕對是一個道德上面的重大議
題。這次投票個人認為也算的上是一個指標。願能夠
成為往後的一項有價值的參考。
2008-03-04 @ 23:55
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
"這篇文章出來之後,一定又要激起許多人的創作靈感來寫部落格了吧!"

...
......

2008-03-04 @ 23:58
迴響 from: M少 [訪問者]
顆顆~~ 多顆多健康~~ 想多顆更多~~
2008-03-04 @ 23:59
迴響 from: 我是學弟 [訪問者]
學長:
學弟最近沒啥空. 不想寫太多.
對於這個投票, 學弟表達個人的想法.
老實說, 我有投票, 且是一千多票的其中一票.
在解釋原因之前, 我先講講幾個前提.
1. 我知道這事情的來龍去脈.
2. 也看完了兩邊的全文, 甚至雙方的部落格文章.
3. 個人覺得, 該高中生一定有看過九把刀的原著.
但我覺得還是不需要因此而撤銷原獎項.
原因在於, 「顛倒」的作者是高中生. 如果作者已經是唸完大學, 甚至是社會人士. 我相信不需要這投票, 公司自然會處理, 甚至也不需要九把刀自己為自己說話.
若今天投票項目是:
A:「顛倒」的作者不需理會紛紛擾擾, 高興的收下這獎項就好.
B:「顛倒」的作者應積極面對, 並為自己的作品向九把刀道歉.

那我一定投 B, 但這種投票題目並不會出現.
為什麼這種投票題目不會出現? 原因在於,「顛倒」的作者並不承認自己抄襲/臨摹自九把刀的作品. 所以, 在無法將抄襲/臨摹動作證據化之下, 才出現這次的題目對吧!
2008-03-05 @ 00:03
迴響 from: 想婊人和被婊的鄉民 [訪問者]
咦? 怎麼沒正妹和型男.....敲碗中。
2008-03-05 @ 00:03
迴響 from: p. [訪問者] · http://tsailipu.spaces.live.com

"但那不是我要的世界,也不是我想要生活的未來。

我要往前走,你可以選擇留下來。"

為你這句話加油!
2008-03-05 @ 00:07
迴響 from: 苦行 [訪問者]
全部我都看過了,只對一個地方有不滿

為什麼用"科科"結尾阿,這完全破壞整篇文章了阿,口胡

嗯,HIGH完了(?),女值星官勒,可惡阿阿阿阿~~~~(敲碗)
2008-03-05 @ 00:17
迴響 from: S. Peter [訪問者]

我沒投票,因為我只想釘蘋果日報。而且我知道只會在網路上仗著匿名鬼吼鬼叫的死小孩一但在真實世界中被人來個稍微正式一點的抗議,通常都只有嚇的屎尿齊流的份(咱們親愛的陳同學),所以小陳躲得不見人影也是情有可原。

我比較賭爛的是那些反對者。他X的,我都說幾遍了,COOKIE驗證有那麼難破解嗎?來這裡被眾人圍剿之後只會躲回自家BLOG隔岸開火聊以自慰,論點不離「九把刀這種人為了出名什麼事作不出來」或是「朱學恆只想紅搧動暴民」。真的要給他們難看該作的是動員所有反對者卯起來投票,以彼之矛攻子之盾,灌個一半的人認為該給獎保證所有人都只能閉嘴同意專業觀點,叫九把刀回去自己好好反省。

結果每個被懶人包引用來引用去的反對者都只會碎碎念什麼濫用民意、尊重專業、造勢活動不屑中圈套之類的狗屁,還沒投票超過兩天就一副自認穩輸的鳥樣(那還認為自己有理是怎樣?「閃開讓專業的來!」嗎?)。真個是戰你娘親……
2008-03-05 @ 00:24
迴響 from: 丰(來不及加入82%的人) [訪問者]
不論投票有沒用
現在知道台北文學獎用不著原創性
大家來找個好作家模仿吧
看第十一屆多精采好了

可以這樣說嗎?
不能?
評審都說可以模仿了


以上(我打的字)這樣還頗悲哀的
2008-03-05 @ 00:31
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
俺在此戰領到的便當多到可以發...囧rz...
2008-03-05 @ 00:33
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
順便一問...當前有人看過誰的部落格單篇回覆破六百的嗎?

有點嚇人,一般討論區的文章標題亂咆哮破五百篇都不容易...

這可蔚為奇觀.
2008-03-05 @ 00:37
迴響 from: 諸宅們 [訪問者]
你們都忽略了一件事
這篇文章慢了整整一天阿
這顯示出朱大的期限概念
延遲24小時是可容許的
眾宅們
想到了沒想到了沒(搖~~~~~)
2008-03-05 @ 00:45
迴響 from: 落發 [訪問者]
吃鞋吃鞋~
2008-03-05 @ 00:52
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
另:

看朱老不爽的網民在這系列的討論幾乎都浮出來了...

實在很妙阿.
2008-03-05 @ 00:58
迴響 from: 沐熙 [訪問者]
阿宅好棒!!(踹飛)

話說朱大最後的科科

實在是太傳神啦!!

我怕我以後看不到怎麼辦啊!!!

科科
2008-03-05 @ 00:59
迴響 from: 歐巴 [訪問者] · http://cindy541.blogspot.com/
沒貼帥哥相片 (失落中...)
2008-03-05 @ 01:16
迴響 from: SL [訪問者]
  破六百回應的blog呀……九把刀的blog有一篇就破一千呀……不過,那篇有人在裡面灌水就是了Orz……
2008-03-05 @ 01:18
迴響 from: SL [訪問者]
  嗯,突然覺得不應該講灌水,應該是惡意的重複留言(茶)
2008-03-05 @ 01:19
迴響 from: zerohacker [訪問者]
請問....最後科科有利於提高正妹閱讀率嗎?
2008-03-05 @ 01:21
迴響 from: Tipsycat [訪問者]
咳咳(翹腳)
我等著看這裡會不會衝到500篇

麻煩字不要打太多
看了頭會痛

[原因在於, 「顛倒」的作者是高中生. 如果作者已經是唸完大學, 甚至是社會人士...]
恩 走在路上被看起像遊民(弱勢族群)搶包包,我相信不需要這大叫,警察自然會處理......
我的比喻真爛

原來強者吃虧是應該的
2008-03-05 @ 01:30
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
破五百?無可能,沒梗了.
2008-03-05 @ 01:33
迴響 from: 機車妹 [訪問者]
我還是覺得這兩個選項都太絕對
非黑即白 這些選項都太biased
我還是傾向尊重專家的意見
必竟他們有專業的素養
也許很多網友的素養更高 但可惜不是評審
我覺得我的文學素養並不足以公平的評論
不同意專家的判斷 就不要參加這個文學競賽
久而久之變成市場自動淘汰機制
自然會有更有公信力更令人信服的比賽出現
想要有一些改革 這樣也無可厚非
但叫大眾來投票 實在沒甚麼可性度
如果請很多在文學界很有實力受大家推從的的作家或專家
或在國際上甚至受到認可的文學家來做一個投票
他們來評論還比較有些價值
對於專業的領域不是一般大眾都贊同的就是對的
也不是只有少數專家贊同的就是錯的
因為很多都是要多年對於這個領域的經驗或知識累積
不是用一般common sense 直覺覺得如何就是如何
我很好奇投票的人中有多少人其文學素養高過這些評審
這次事件是一件很引人爭議的結果
也許獎項該從缺之類的 但這是他們做法的問題
也許高中生有抄襲或沒抄襲 我自覺沒甚麼資格去評論
他們想如何做也是他們當評審的權利 因為他們的背景被認可而不是我
這個投票我覺得是一個不太有意義的事
你就算告訴評審 你看很多人都覺得這個獎不該頒
這些評審想 你是誰啊 你有多少年的文學背景
如果落選的人很不甘心 我也相信
何不如更努力做出一篇很棒的作品 讓所有的評審不的不選你的作品
如果有人為了九把刀抱不平 那就更是九把刀跟這個高中生的事了
他可以尋求法路途徑解決這件事
也許這些評審覺得即使他有參考九把刀的作品
還是一篇好作品 也不得而知
就算是機車妹的歧見與無知好了
還是覺得所有的競賽都有其覺得公平不公平
我會期許自己要輸得起 下次比賽讓大家心服口服
至於一些如果真的適用不正當手段得到的榮譽
這是他的損失 他永遠不會進步 我不想花精力去爭論他的不構格
2008-03-05 @ 02:46
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
最後不科科一下實在不過癮,那幾天一直砍灌票實在砍的我很無聊.....

Lucifer

2008-03-05 @ 06:12
迴響 from: 簡單 [訪問者]
看來台北文學模仿大賽的評審也不打算開第二次會了?
陳同學也不打算道歉或承認參考模仿了?

九把刀也不打算提高或繼續追究了??
主辦單位似乎打算就這樣混過去了??

所以,第十屆的模仿污名就洗不掉了??

此時,對於其他得獎同學覺得很同情,彷彿得到了一個有點不光榮的獎...

而這不光榮只是因為一個參賽者+五位評+主辦單位,幾個人的行為,就這樣將它染色了。

今後,沒意外的話,台北文學模仿大賽,會成為我記憶中不容易忘卻的一個名詞。
2008-03-05 @ 07:57
迴響 from: 傑森 [訪問者]
圖表上有一個2票的國家旗幟未被顯示,難...難道是吉翁公國嗎...?(汗)遠從Side 3來的IP位址不知道是怎樣啊....不過domain後國名縮寫大概是".zi"吧...(爆)
2008-03-05 @ 08:39
迴響 from: 傑森 [訪問者]
講正經的。
我看了九把刀的部落格,事實上他一直強調他的文章是遵循著CC授權條款的。
所以我想他大概不介意人家抄襲文章架構及概念,但是介意抄了之後沒有引用來源--或者說對方一直否認有參考九把刀的文章這回事。
當然還是要回到那個最爭議的原點:陳生那篇文章是否參考九把刀的文章架構及創意?
我個人認為有,所以我投"不應該頒獎予陳生"。
這種抄襲的事搞搞同人就算了,拿去參獎是有點取巧。
大概十幾年前,好像是中國時報還是哪個單位辦的漫畫獎,我就因為這樣投書給主辦單位。
因為其中一篇得獎作品,人物風格以及筆觸學原哲夫就算了,整個故事架構以及分鏡完全學...不,是完全抄襲寺澤武一的"Cobra(早期台譯本名為"宇宙鐵漢")"的"人面鑽石花"篇。
我寫信去(因為當時電子郵件不發達)指出這篇作品完全抄襲,雖然故事內容扯的不一樣,但只要拿起漫畫一頁一頁對照就知道,分鏡、分格、運鏡,完全一樣。
不知情的人,還以為原哲夫在向寺澤武一致敬...
信件當然是石沉大海。
大概也是人為言輕吧?
我蠻贊同這次強獸人...啊不,是朱學恒的網路投票,但我著重的是,因為現在網路創作太多,即令諸位評審多麼博學多聞,總是會有漏網之魚的讓一些文抄公得獎,這時候網路評審就可以派上用場了。
三個臭皮匠,勝過一個諸葛亮。
如果的確可以證實得獎的是獨自構思的、不是抄襲某個網路小角落的好文章,那麼我們所有人也會對作者致上最大的敬意。
2008-03-05 @ 09:00
迴響 from: cyber runner [訪問者] · http://orz18.blogspot.com
科科
有便當可領嗎
那就排隊等拉
XDDD
2008-03-05 @ 09:37
迴響 from: priest66 [訪問者]
結論好棒阿~
之前看討論串的時候真的看到很想吐
心理一直想說靠!大家也太聰明了吧!

話說我原本投票的時候似乎按錯!
但也沒有多投 把他"推"回來
會被砍票吧
...................
投了誤差票
2008-03-05 @ 09:46
迴響 from: 小一 [訪問者]
「到此為止」是無法適時處理問題的推拖之詞
以前有位奸詐的教授曾對我說過一次
當時,我非常的不高興,認為她太沒擔當

後來,我自己遇到類似事件
居然不加思索,順口道出「這件事情就到此為止」

自我省思,層層剖析這句話
(1)
引用人厭倦之後一連串無止盡的牽扯,焦點被模糊
(2)
自知本身沒有太充足的理由來反駁
臉又拉不下來,無法違逆溫良恭儉讓的精神
綜合以上兩點,最終採取"守勢"
「到此為此」亦可解讀為 ===> 本人不再回應(冷眼靜觀)

我個人不高調
認同「到此為止」,是在難以尋覓上策的情況下
勉強可"利用",下策中的上策

2008-03-05 @ 09:47
迴響 from: 謝萬金 [訪問者] · http://www.wretch.cc/blog/babejing
好愛那兩個---科科

科科
2008-03-05 @ 10:00
迴響 from: markscat [訪問者] · http://blog.udn.com/markscat
  我想不出來對於這麼無聊的投票,這麼無聊的投票結果,我到底該寫什麼。
2008-03-05 @ 10:21
迴響 from: baabuu [訪問者]
---------------------------------------


但那不是我要的世界,也不是我想要生活的未來。

我要往前走,你可以選擇留下來。


---------------------------------------

今天的值星官應該是約翰走路大叔才對. . . . . . . . . . .
2008-03-05 @ 10:29
迴響 from: 很愛婊朱大的那一個Lance [訪問者]
朱大

"蠢"字送你一個

世界上 有爭議的事 主觀的事 太多太多

為什麼要有"專家"



專家絕對不是正確的

但是 世界上就是要有標準 要有裁判

你看過一場球賽的犯規與否是由觀眾來決定的嗎

有 我在神鬼戰士 羅馬競技場裡看過

你說 當專家逃避責任時 你率領網友來決定這事

專家 不是都已經說了 保持陳生得講

而你 卻咄咄逼人 不肯讓事罷休 非要將陳生批的體無完膚

也罷

你這很簡單 叫民粹

小至用群眾的力量去破壞遊戲的規則

大則用群眾的力量去顛覆法律的公斷

用某方面的高人氣 去破壞社會某些 很愚蠢 但是又必須要有的規則

抄襲與否 丟給專家決定 讓他們說了算

問題是 陳生有沒有抄襲 大家自有公斷 自己心知度明

你這做法 就是要讓陳生體無完膚

說的道貌岸然

但是心理存在著很嚴重的私心

今天

朱大你以一種 "專家" 的口吻 來跟我們 "教訓" 這件事

而你呢?

你為什麼不以"專家"的身份

來負起 "專家" 的責任

大聲的說 陳生 有抄襲

反而

把你自己的工作 推給網友

你這行為 比你口中那些不負責任的專家更丟臉

你 朱學桓

就有品 有種 有格 一點

不要躲在網友背後

否則 你就不要整天把捐了多少做文學基金會說嘴

到台前說 " 這件事 我認定 陳生抄襲 "

不要在這邊借刀殺人

不要以網友的主觀認定的意見 拿著這把刀 去補陳生最後一下

丟臉
2008-03-05 @ 10:58
結果和我預期的一樣
雖然自己是9282票中的一票
但還是覺得有哪裡怪怪的
我同意不能讓這件事情算了....

我多希望能用更溫柔的作法......
不過顯然可以這麼做的人都躲起來啦
無奈~~
2008-03-05 @ 11:22
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
----------------------------------------------------------------

迴響來自: markscat [訪問者] · http://blog.udn.com/markscat
  我想不出來對於這麼無聊的投票,這麼無聊的投票結果,我到底該寫什麼。
全文連結 2008-03-05 @ 10:21
----------------------------------------------------------------

你可以只寫無聊兩個字, 跟朱大的科科相輝映

不過話又說回來, 你說不知道該寫什麼也還是留言啦!
2008-03-05 @ 11:23
迴響 from: Pomin [訪問者] · http://blog.roodo.com/pomin
不吐不快....
說實話,我是覺得有點民粹的感覺,
或許請朱大可以再辦一次投票,
請諸位已投票的網友,說說自己到底有沒有看完兩個作者的這兩篇爭議文章?

我在讀完這兩篇文章前,也是跟各位網友一起瞎起鬨,
覺得"陳生抄襲真不要臉","又是一個侵犯著作權的事件",
可是我後來真的認真的去看了這兩篇文章,
就覺得...其實說不上抄襲耶...只是兩篇題材很類似的文章...

我就不相信有投票的網友裡面,大部分有很認真的讀過這兩篇爭議文章...
2008-03-05 @ 11:32
迴響 from: 貓下去 [訪問者]
我們還是只能在這闡述自己的意見而不會被採納,
參與及雙方論述是對此事件的意見表達,
如果蘇花高與大陸政策能由大家來決定,
我想會比較是我所想要的未來。
2008-03-05 @ 11:36
迴響 from: scharoun給Lance [訪問者] · http://blog.roodo.com/scharoun
我看了不少你的回文,你總認為這邊在作的事情民粹,會把好好的一個年輕人逼上絕路(會自殺啦;不再寫作啦),認為我們不該主觀的批評。但是,為了保護小朋友,可以不去追求事情的真相?那我想請問你,這樣可以保護多久?就因為怕他會受傷?我們一生中都會犯錯,難道都可以怕受傷而不承認?你會這樣教你的小孩嗎?
2008-03-05 @ 11:51
迴響 from: 鷹少爺 [訪問者]
個人總覺得
Lance大
不去 謝總統候選人 陣營應徵
是件很可惜的事(點頭)

======
雖然沒投票
但是我對重覆灌票數量很好奇啊~~xd

朱大
能夠說說"灌票ip"與"灌票數量"各有多少嗎xd??
2008-03-05 @ 12:00
迴響 from: 約翰 [訪問者] · http://blog.sina.com.tw/johnjohnko/
[依舊不相信只因為是專家,就有資格在不公開討論、不公開過程的狀況下,片面的逃避對這場爭議提供意見的職責。]
這是廢話,因為依據這次的文學獎規則,
評審本來就不需要在獎項決定後,對於後續引起的爭議做任何說明,
更何況引起的[爭議],本身就是個[爭議],
重點不是在資格,而是規則。

[但我們並沒有失敗,不會永遠是這樣的。]
這句話也是廢話,一定永遠都是這樣的,因為遊戲規則就是這樣,
只要規則不改,永遠都是這樣。

[讓沈默的5個專家勝過10894個意見]這句話更是廢話,一點意義都沒有,
競賽規則明定,結果是由評審決定,再來十億個各種意見其結果也不會改變。

除非朱大自己辦個可以事後讓網友對評審結果翻盤的文學獎,
除非未來的文學獎把網路投票機制加入記分,不然文學獎永遠都是這樣。
除非九把刀加入評審,用他自己的抄襲定義來評審,

不然下次再有爭議也一樣,

競賽存在的意義在於有規則可循,
沒有規矩,不足以成方圓,

若希望投票結果可以對評審結果有任何萬分之ㄧ的影響,
希望可以再次召開評審會議,希望可以收回獎項,
就是試圖毀壞這規則。

我覺得,對文學獎而言,這投票活動是個肥皂劇,只是讓大家爽或不爽,
沒有任何的意義,贊成的還是贊成,反對的還是反對,
不會改變任何事,不會影響任何人,像破掉的肥皂泡沫,什麼也沒留下。
2008-03-05 @ 12:12
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
------------------------------------------------------------
迴響來自: 很愛婊朱大的那一個Lance [訪問者]
朱大
"蠢"字送你一個
世界上 有爭議的事 主觀的事 太多太多

......(恕刪)......

你說 當專家逃避責任時 你率領網友來決定這事
專家 不是都已經說了 保持陳生得講
而你 卻咄咄逼人 不肯讓事罷休 非要將陳生批的體無完膚

......(恕刪).......

問題是 陳生有沒有抄襲 大家自有公斷 自己心知度明

......(恕刪)......
------------------------------------------------------------

怎麼我覺得這個"蠢"字選擇留在原地, 並沒有送出去啊?

專家到底是自己可以自封的, 還是要大家認定且信任的呢? 當大多數的人都對所謂的專家的決議有疑慮的時候, 為什麼不能表達出自己的意見呢?

而且正如樓上的網友所言, 這次投票結果並不能改變什麼啊! 不過就是統計大家的意見而已, 怎麼又跟民粹還有群眾暴力扯上關係啊?

要送人"蠢"字之前, 請舉出能讓人欣然接受的說辭吧! 不然始終都是留在自己手上的.
2008-03-05 @ 12:42
迴響 from: 卜子 [訪問者]
我想喔....
如果能取得這次得名的作品.然後每一篇都來個投票.
我倒是很好奇大家會投出什麼結果.
-------------------我是分隔線---------------
我猜.
如果大家不是因為有陳漢寧先生.以及九把刀(柯景騰)先生二篇文章做比較.
單看各一篇.
我認為大家可能都覺得"獲獎也ok,佳作而已嘛"的結論
但是二篇比較....可能問題多點吧..
2008-03-05 @ 12:46
迴響 from: 火星人 [訪問者] · http://photo.xuite.net/mei_bmw/2167881/40.jpg
上次才說"型男"不夠帥,是朱大沒誠意而已!
今天,連"照片"都沒有了~
唉...不想PO男的,女生...我也能接受啦!!!
我提供自己的照片...自己當值星官好了!

說好遵守"時效"才是男子漢的人,自己說要做的事情都delay了!
但是,還是堅持不吃鞋...也不給我包子 . >_
2008-03-05 @ 12:46
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
To: 火星人

朱大好像只說過在逆境中堅持自己要做的事情才是男子漢, 沒說過要遵守時效的. 而且在我們大家一片拱他吃鞋的逆境中, 他堅持不吃, 這就是男子漢(握拳).

看來只能等以後看看有沒有正妹能再誘使朱大打吃鞋的賭吧!
2008-03-05 @ 12:56
如果名嘴可以享有在媒體上公然婊各家政治人物的言論自由...

那麼,我們這些卑微的凡人,可不可以享有在網路上發表言論的自由?

如果想看「文以載道」的文章,請參考《古文觀止》或《昌黎先生集》。

每個人都要為自己做的事情負責。

我們的討論當然言責自負(包括L大等)。

做錯事的人可以躲在或年齡或權威的保護傘下當孫子。但不要奢望這個世界會忘記你犯的錯(或是「不肯認錯」這件事)。

扣上民粹的大帽子,引起不知情的大眾對特定網站或個人產生「圖利自己」的形象,妄想利用大眾的壓力,迫使網友放棄言論自由的權利,以保護少數人逃脫應有的指責...這才是「民粹」吧?!

科科~~(學朱大的)
2008-03-05 @ 13:28
迴響 from: FLJX [訪問者] · http://flzen.wordpress.com
個人認為,朱大行為雖然不是真理,「但是沒有錯」
在辯論以及推薦理念的時候,引用數據以及調查市場的行為,是非常常見的。
君不見商業周刊分析新的產品發佈、公司政策、股市走向、導致什麼東西有什麼結果,講的頭頭是道?
引用本來就是將他人之力轉到自己手上


此外 to Lance
我不認為這個網頁有讓 陳生 體無完膚
如果有這麼多人投票 那麼就是有這麼多人投票
難道國民黨選上立委超過2/3就是對民進黨的羞辱?

朱大在此文 -個人認為- 比較像是在跟評審叫囂吧

最後我還想說
如果有任何人會想自殺
那他還是必須對自己的生命負責
自己選擇
自己的負責
2008-03-05 @ 13:29
迴響 from: SL [訪問者]
  我個人是比較頃向投票前要輸入理由(茶)

  這樣的絕對的投票是挺容易誤導人的……也很容易讓朱大所認為的世界根本不會存在。

  因為看過很多人的發言,真正去針對裡面的每一字每一個角度去思考的人,並不多呀。大部分的人還是很單純地以為,答案,只有抄襲與沒有抄襲。

  要讓未來的世界沒有神,獨立思考,據理分析,是件很重要的前提。
2008-03-05 @ 13:51
迴響 from: SL [訪問者]
  不過我蠻高興的是看到,樓上有網友本來是瞎起鬨,但後來還是仔細去看兩篇文章了解狀況。

  我很好奇,在那些投票數量裡,有多少人是瞎起鬨的……這點,如果有輸入理由,應該更容易明白。雖然一萬多條理由會看得是挺辛苦得到是真的(茶)
2008-03-05 @ 13:56
迴響 from: nihilist [訪問者]
同樣認為有人想送"蠢"卻蠢到只能自己收,

一篇有摹寫別人作品嫌疑的文章能得到佳作,
那叫那些認真自己創作卻落選的情何以堪,
搞不好落選的看到竟然還有人在幫那陳生說話而想不開自殺,
講話沒禮貌又不經大腦的蠢人是要負責嗎~?
2008-03-05 @ 14:18
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
就說科科是很正確的結尾呀!

Lucifer

我砍的灌票百分之九十五左右都是灌在選項一,至於為什麼大家愛灌選項一(就是覺得應該保留獎項),這我也不知道。

泰國這邊不少正妹說......

又被罵啦(轉圈圈)....

只有浴血成長的人才是男!子!漢!
2008-03-05 @ 15:28
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
朱大!

泰國的正妹還是要小心辨別一下性別哦! 不一定看到的都的是妹.......
2008-03-05 @ 15:42
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
這裡的大學生都穿制服,沒那麼早啦~~~

Lucifer
2008-03-05 @ 15:51
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
朱大 !

貼上值星官才是正確的結尾啦! 上一篇巨乳的逆轉已經氣跑不少正妹了, 這篇又沒帥男值星官, 正妹都跑光了啦! 再這樣下去, 就算你再打賭吃鞋, 也很難提昇正妹閱讀率了.

泰國的正妹再多, 帶不上部落格這邊也是白搭啊! 朱大! 別只顧著自己在泰國爽, 就忘了這邊的正妹閱讀率促進月啊!
2008-03-05 @ 15:53
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
不會吧...幹同樣的梗又出現了...
2008-03-05 @ 16:06
迴響 from: taxi [訪問者]
--但那不是我要的世界,也不是我想要生活的未來。
那是你家的事


--我要往前走,你可以選擇留下來。
好像大家都往前走了
只有您還留在這件事上
這樣算擇善固執嗎

科科
2008-03-05 @ 16:14
迴響 from: Gangster0322 [訪問者]
從投票分析中...
我發現朱大的blog超級國際化的阿...
竟然有來自33個不同國家和區域...
而且有不少都是極為冷門的國家押...
2008-03-05 @ 16:16
迴響 from: Mr. Monkey [訪問者] · http://weijr-note.blogspot.com
不少人說群眾暴力,其實這次反而比較不算。

群眾智慧這種事情,當然只是騙騙一般人的玩意,反正一切都是人民的意思、大家的意思。
你的意見,並不會因為認同的人多少,而變得更對或更錯。
如果群眾的看法能夠代表對錯,那考試也不用標準答案了,直接把最多人的答案當成標準答案就行了。
簡單的問題當然可以,但是難一點的問題,就不一定了。
但一個議題如果複雜到需要投票,那通常就不會太簡單的問題。所以投票本來就只能處理意見調查類的事情。

但這不表示讓大多數人表達意見就是群眾暴力。群眾當然有,但問題在於有沒有暴力。
網路本來就是現代的大字報,如果只是單純的表達意見,即使是錯誤的意見,也不算是暴力。
暴力是在於批鬥和嘲諷的部份,特別是情緒性的批鬥、刻薄的嘲諷。
所以舉例來說,「大人怎麼可以欺負歲數不到一半的小孩」算是,而「刀大我支持你」不算是暴力。
當然還是有很多趁亂施暴的人,但是數量相對較小。

並不是群眾蠢,就是群眾暴力。大多數人抱持著錯誤的看法,是常態。
如果現在才發現群眾蠢,或者根本沒有發現,那只是因為你很少離開常態分佈的中間。
2008-03-05 @ 16:22
迴響 from: 貓神官 [訪問者]
To:Gangster0322
事實上呢,我看到投票國籍分析的第一個感想
Tor和無界之類的真是好物…
2008-03-05 @ 16:49
迴響 from: Balerion [訪問者]
格主


您認為陳生真的是抄襲而不是巧合嗎

您有知道哪些巧合的例子嗎
2008-03-05 @ 17:05
迴響 from: bosimeiya [訪問者]
原本應該可以有99%支持的事情,卻因為處理方式導致15%的失分,也許可以讓九把刀思考看看吧!
2008-03-05 @ 17:17
迴響 from: 約翰約翰 [訪問者] · http://blog.sina.com.tw/johnjohnko/
今天有個很KUSO的想法,也許九把刀是因為....
他覺得陳同學有抄襲,可是卻沒有拿到第一名,所以很生氣,
希望能再招開一次評審會議,幫陳同學爭取拿到第一名,
可是評審和陳同學都說沒抄,所以卯起來更生氣吧.......
2008-03-05 @ 18:05
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
目白兄,

老梗也是可以炒出新意啊! 這也是有些人不斷強調的吧!

對這些在逆境中仍能繼續堅持自己所做是對的, 我們應該也敬重他們是男子漢才對, 科科~~~~~

耶! 我也用科科結尾耶, 但是我也要當男子漢, 堅持這不是抄襲.....
2008-03-05 @ 18:06
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
不行不行...
再讓俺看到群眾暴力相關論述恐怕就要噴血了...
先行迴避一下.
2008-03-05 @ 18:21
迴響 from: Tomky [訪問者] · http://tomky.blogspot.com/
沒有人把投票箱放在競選總部裡面的....

這件事本身的確是個指標,
我看到很多人願意在州官放火時依然站在房前救火。
我也看到有人高呼著口號,希望引起所謂人類的進化。
我很開心的看到,很多人在面對一個耶稣時,願意去思考神的存在性,

甚至去發現,其實這只是又一個歷史在不同平台上重演的必然過程。

我同意但不投85%,我佩服那15%,我厭惡偽客觀的投票,我喜歡這一連串理性或非理性的討論,我憤怒用這一連串討論來繼續造神的人。
2008-03-05 @ 18:45
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
唉.........

為什麼總有人覺得自己可以明辨事理, 卻否定別人也有自行判斷的能力? 一口咬定群眾就是一定是盲從的, 就是有人帶領的?

朱學恒有啥地方值得人崇拜的? 我找不出來耶! 有人能舉證說明嗎?
2008-03-05 @ 19:24
迴響 from: 謝萬金 [訪問者] · http://www.wretch.cc/blog/babejing
他翻了魔戒
文字其實很優美
跟這邊的機八毛文章不一樣

其他的請參閱他的舊文章
2008-03-05 @ 20:48
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
謝正妹,

我十幾年前就在雜誌上看過朱大的文章囉! 我的意思是朱大做過的事情頂多有些讓人稱讚叫好, 但是還不至於讓人對他盲目的崇拜吧?! 我只是不解怎麼老有人說朱大濫用影響力, 領導群眾怎樣怎樣的, 所以想請這些人舉證到底朱大能怎樣讓人對他產生崇拜的心理而甘願放棄自己理性思考跟判斷能力, 因為我實在想不出來.
2008-03-05 @ 22:42
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
哦! 對了! 朱大在翻譯魔戒之前, 就有翻譯龍槍系列(Dragonlance)的奇幻小說囉! 有興趣的可以去找來看, 也是很不錯的哦!
2008-03-05 @ 22:49
迴響 from: 謝萬金 [訪問者] · http://www.wretch.cc/blog/babejing
因為他們覺得會在這裡的都是腦殘鄉民
呴呴呴呴呴呴

我之前在前幾篇筆戰最兇的那一篇
(我忘記哪一篇了,因為我今天看到千秋王子,啥都不記得了)
也疑惑過
為什麼有些人會覺得在這裡的人都是盲從不會獨立思考的人

我想來想去
只想到第一行的那個理由

因為他們的傲慢造成他們對這裡的人的偏見
所以就算我們有獨立思考,也會變成說是被洗腦

所以~~~
隨便啦

呴呴呴呴呴呴呴呴呴
PS~我不是正妹啦,這樣叫我我會不好意思,因為我不會科科,我只會巫婆的呴呴呴呴



2008-03-05 @ 23:06
迴響 from: 神樣撒旦 [訪問者] · http://o-my-godsatan.blogspot.com
獎杯真的那麼重要嗎
http://o-my-godsatan.blogspot.com/
2008-03-05 @ 23:39
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
謝正妹,

科科是宅男用的啦! 正妹只要會說"嘻嘻","呵呵","要洗澡" 就好了(耶? 怎麼好像我又模仿朱大了? 不行! 我是男子漢! 我堅持我沒有抄襲!) 所以妳會呵呵呵, 就是正妹啦!

其實不只是我, 其他人也問過, 到底是什麼原因讓這些人認為這裡的人都是盲目崇拜朱大而不會自行思考判斷的? 不過到現在還是沒看到有人出面說明, 只是繼續扣住"民粹"啦, "群眾暴力"啦, "濫用影響力"啦, "盲從"啦, 這些帽子不放, 卻又講不出個道理來. 像這樣只會主觀的下斷語, 卻提不出是什麼道理讓他們做這樣的結論, 我實在不知道這樣會比他們口中所不齒的"盲從"有優秀到哪去.

至少我這個腦殘的鄉民提出了"為什麼總有人覺得自己可以明辨事理, 卻否定別人也有自行判斷的能力?"的邏輯, 請問有誰可以出來舉證推翻的?
2008-03-05 @ 23:48
迴響 from: 唉呀 [訪問者]
不過是萬人參與而已
哪能跟水果的讀者群比阿
為什麼總是選擇性失憶勒
群眾暴力......
別把自己正在幹的事推給別人
網路上總是排斥敢作不敢當的人
快滾回奶奶的懷抱去吧
2008-03-05 @ 23:57
迴響 from: 台灣大哥二 [訪問者]
「朱學恒有啥地方值得人崇拜的? 」 拜託你不要崇拜他,只要你能比他造福更多人就好! 我眼中朱學恒這個人… 很會賺:單一書籍翻譯稿費破千萬。 很會捨:把翻譯賺來的錢娟出來辦「奇幻文學基金會」。 很會做:翻譯「開放課程」進度勝過中國官方…台灣官方啥都沒做。
2008-03-06 @ 00:11
迴響 from: 謝萬金 [訪問者] · http://www.wretch.cc/blog/babejing
我是用呴呴~~ㄏㄡ
不是用呵呵~~ㄏㄜ

正妹跟巫婆
我比較想當巫婆

呴呴呴呴呴呴呴

我覺得今天朱大是公眾人物
當然我好奇如果今天白木怡言的版主也發起同樣的言論
他們會不會也去說擁護者是網路暴民,還是因為他是帥哥,所以他說的都是對的?!
胖宅的悲哀啊!
當然這是題外話啦
我不知道說,如果今天換另外一個沒沒無名的老百姓提出這樣子的事
某些人會不會也過去說同樣的話
如果不會,那不就是說朱大是公眾人物,這變成他的原罪

我覺得每個人都有自己的立場跟想法
我都可以尊重,因為很多事情本來就是意識型態在作祟
人本來就是相信自己想要相信的東西
但是沒有必要去貶低別人來提高自己
所以我看到有人言之鑿鑿的說,這裡是腦殘的鄉民跟一堆盲從的暴民
我真的有點看不下去,所以後來我都不想去看那些筆戰的東西
因為我覺得我後來看到的東西都是---因為朱大是公眾人物,所以不可以怎樣怎樣
然後因為朱大是公眾人物,所以我們就是腦殘的鄉民跟一堆盲從的暴民

我欣賞朱大
單純是因為他是一個男子漢
他不是一個表裡不一的人
我第一次看到他的部落格時
我心理想,挖~翻得出魔戒精靈話的人,就像我家隔壁老王一樣,也會吃飯,也會看妹,也會罵髒話
因為我本來把他想成很空靈的人,就像夢遺大師一樣,乘風而來乘風而去

這世界虛偽的人夠多了
你可以不用去贊成他的想法啊
但是至少他赤裸裸的把他的看法說出來
而不是,為了滿足大家的期盼所以說出不是他的真心話

男人中的男人啊

唉呀~這樣我會不會被說是一個盲從的人啊?
2008-03-06 @ 00:37
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
-----------------------------------------------------
迴響來自: 謝萬金 [訪問者] · http://www.wretch.cc/blog/babejing

......(恕刪)......

男人中的男人啊

唉呀~這樣我會不會被說是一個盲從的人啊?
-----------------------------------------------------

我想眾阿宅們心裡懷疑的應該是, 妳會不會哪天脫口說出"朱大, 我是你的人了"..........
2008-03-06 @ 01:14
迴響 from: 謝萬金 [訪問者] · http://www.wretch.cc/blog/babejing
唉呀~
我之前說過
請自行去筆戰很多的那邊尋找
我忘記在哪裡了
已經淹沒在一片烽煙狼火中了

呴呴呴
2008-03-06 @ 01:38
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
原來早就說過啦! 科科~~~~~~

難怪看妳形容朱大就完全是稱讚自己男人的模樣.........

別害羞啦! 有時候朱大的作為也會讓我折服, 不過我不敢像你這樣說, 會被他打死..... 科科~~~~~
2008-03-06 @ 02:05
迴響 from: 鷹少爺 [訪問者]
所以結論就是 朱先生不帥 所以要被批!! XD
2008-03-06 @ 08:57
迴響 from: 謝萬金 [訪問者] · http://www.wretch.cc/blog/babejing
我是他的人
但是他不是我的男人啊
因為他說這裡不是邪教啊

而且我只是盲從而已

呴呴呴呴呴
2008-03-06 @ 11:12
迴響 from: 學弟 [訪問者]
我想,大家有沒有想過一件事情。媒體在這次的事件扮演的角色呢?
最初陳同學不願訴諸媒體(是他阿罵訴諸)、刀大也不願走媒體這條路。但媒體即便得到阿罵的尚方寶劍,其如何扮演這次的角色?各位鄉民們又如何?
2008-03-06 @ 11:56
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
其實原因很簡單,會認為他人有個人崇拜的人,多半是自我評量說:啊,其實我會因為很多事情而盲目跟從一個人,所以你們一定也是!

但其實我們就!不!是!

這樣講帥氣吧!

Lucifer
2008-03-06 @ 13:56
迴響 from: 謝萬金 [訪問者] · http://www.wretch.cc/blog/babejing
很帥

果然是男人中的男人啊!

呴呴
2008-03-06 @ 14:05
迴響 from: 鷹少爺 [訪問者]
朱大的話 簡單來說就只有四個字
"以己度人"


(0厄~~又想起這兩天江大媽罵白大媽的事)
2008-03-06 @ 14:07
迴響 from: 潛水夫 [訪問者]
標準做賊的喊抓賊。
2008-03-06 @ 14:24
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
最好每個網路使用者都是心智未開的小朋友啦.
(即便是也沒看過誰承認過.)
2008-03-06 @ 17:00
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
另:

談到這個網路的未來,在六七年級成為這個社會的主力後比較有可能。
當前這裡的爭議,也許在於發言者份量不足,以後會不會改觀,難講。
2008-03-06 @ 17:03
迴響 from: killbane [訪問者]
誰要浪費生命去看這麼多回應.很多回應是重複或是無義意的(我就是覺得之類,我直覺......)
我覺得這就是網路抱著樂觀看法的您未曾說的部份.人生真的要浪費這麼多時間去和混亂搏鬥嗎?我不能就單純就本文表示意見嗎?
專家的意見早就出來了.如今也沒什麼難聽的不好說了,其實承認吧,不懂是您淺薄.九把刀可以關起門來說純文學評論者們就放手讓網路作家安靜的搞網路文學吧.
可是現在的態勢是反過來了,純文學有一套純文學的價值與標準,不是不說,是本來就不是簡單說得好的,像喝咖啡,品味是慢慢一點一點建立的.這五個人在台灣排出來還不夠份量請問你和九把刀就夠嗎?
現在你們也了解不算抄襲了,九把刀也緩口說不吵抄不抄的問題,是值不值的問題.
值不值,評審說了算,比抄不抄還不值得談.這和台灣要入聯返聯一樣,公投想要就要喔.那我也公投自己不要繳稅,我家方圓五公尺就是我領土.我自己投我自己一票.反正沒別人要為了這無聊的問題表示意見,我自己說了算.

差不多也是該反過來說了,自認為代表網路文學的九把刀和代表網路民主新世代的朱老大您.是不是也該放手,讓純文學安安靜靜的去搞他媽的純文學.這樣可以嗎?

說穿了,你只是純粹的想找名人麻煩而已吧.
2008-03-06 @ 17:09
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
"說穿了,你只是純粹的想找名人麻煩而已吧."

到目前為止,俺尚未對這個該死的白痴議題做任何回應.
你們當可以這樣想,當然上面的回覆也只是眾多回應重複回鍋的一篇.


藝術界,小小的台灣就已分為南北兩派,
從競標公共藝術工程案即可知其厲害.
而學院制下新人要獲獎有時還得跟對老師,
(北高美館常跑看作品取向就可以知道了。)
所謂離開網路還給任何領域一個安靜的空間是在對哪裡開砲?
安靜嗎?

文學界,更不用講了,
光是學術研究派別早已不僅只南北對立。
安靜嗎?

(全文完)
2008-03-06 @ 17:35
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
在任何領域,小眾主導的文化永遠只有小眾知其倫理,無對錯之分。

永恆不變的,就是無論使用任何平台發表意見(媒體,報章雜誌,網路),基教派永遠雞雞叫!
2008-03-06 @ 17:50
迴響 from: 專家是王道? [訪問者]
管他是專家還是評審,失去公信力就是屁,不相信公信力那我真不懂你在爭什麼東西?

專家意見比較值得參考?參考個屌,專家如果是正妹我很樂意參考!

參與投票的多是盲目的鄉民?

如果朱大發文開頭寫「以我身為帥哥的立場對九把刀的回應....」,仍得到廣大阿宅熱烈支持,我也會大聲說:「幹,你們這些瞎子!」,然後否定這個投票結果...
2008-03-06 @ 18:55
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
這些人一直都是進來就衝著朱大扣帽子, 儘管我們已經不只一次提出我們的質疑, 他們仍然是自說自話, 然後把我們贊同朱大的都歸類成不會質疑只會盲從的粉絲, 卻始終沒有正面回應我們提出的質疑.

"說穿了,你只是純粹的想找名人麻煩而已吧"
2008-03-06 @ 18:57
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
這些人一直都是進來就衝著朱大扣帽子, 儘管我們已經不只一次提出我們的質疑, 他們仍然是自說自話, 然後把我們贊同朱大的都歸類成不會質疑只會盲從的粉絲, 卻始終沒有正面回應我們提出的質疑.

"說穿了,你只是純粹的想找名人麻煩而已吧" --- 這不就是很典型的, 自己腦袋就是這種邏輯, 然後就認定別人都是這樣, 偏偏又覺得自己跟別人不一樣.

所以包正妹, 不用替朱大擔心啦! 他現在滿腦子只有泰國正妹, 不會把這些莫須有的罪名放在心上的. 本來無一物, 何處惹塵埃?

在路上如果遇到野狗對你狂吠, 只要不理會牠們, 過陣子牠們自討沒趣就會走開了, 犯不著也趴在地上對牠們吠回去吧?

2008-03-06 @ 18:57
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
哇咧......... 原來<符號不能亂打, 不然後面的文字都被吃掉了
2008-03-06 @ 19:02
迴響 from: killbane [訪問者]
昆德拉在其小說"無知"中說過一個典故.二十世紀初的德國音樂家荀白克宣稱,因為他的貢獻,德國音樂的統治地位將在未來的百年屹立不搖.十五年後,他被迫離開德國(猶太人),後來到死他都對自己的作品充滿信心,以兩三百年後的時代為後盾,說,到那個時候,時間將會清楚的呈現.
等他死後,果然二十年間,他的作品被推崇禮讚,宛如二十世紀最偉大的音樂作品.不過他的作品隨後就離開了音樂廳離開了人們的記憶.

昆德拉說:他絕對不是要說荀白克高估了自己,絕對不是,荀白克高估的是未來.
昆德拉繼續談:
他(荀白克)是不是在思考上犯了什麼錯.不是,他想的都對,只是他的生活領域,層次太高了.和他談天說地的都是德國的大人物,巴哈,歌德,布拉姆斯,馬勒......兩支大軍在為神聖事業誓死相殘,但擺平他們的,卻是一種微小的黑死病菌.
......
可是未來啊,音符的洪水氾濫.上頭漂著作曲家的浮屍.雜在殘枝敗葉之間.

=====
把音樂換成文字.我覺得昆德拉描繪的這副景象,正是這事件的重點.
文字,現在每個人都輕易的接觸文字,無時無刻不受各種傳媒的文字影響,片斷的紛雜的.
讓很多人都以為自己就是專家了,不了解也不尊重文字專業.
是的,沒錯,未來的世界沒有神,只有氾濫的文字洪水,上面飄著偉大作者的浮屍,通向文字的虛無之境(是啊,小說終會死亡.)
2008-03-06 @ 21:12
迴響 from: Tom [訪問者]

可是現在的態勢是反過來了,純文學有一套純文學的價值與標準,不是不說,是本來就不是簡單說得好的,像喝咖啡,品味是慢慢一點一點建立的.這五個人在台灣排出來還不夠份量請問你和九把刀就夠嗎?


每一件議題是每一件議題,每個文學問題也是每個文學問題
而文章的這件事,就是在討論某一個問題、單一一個議題
此篇在討論「第十屆台北文學獎青春組小說類佳作應不應該頒與《顛倒》一作」
這是個簡單的、不複雜的「純文學問題」,於是乎多數的觀眾,
有自信、有把握個人在此問題的評判上是正確的

這題投票主題,它「本來就是簡單說得好的」,
這不是一道您所說的困難的文學題目,反而很簡單、很明顯,
和您「本來就不是簡單說得好的」相反,所以killbane您立論的前提錯了

而您的這問題
「這五個人在台灣排出來還不夠份量請問你和九把刀就夠嗎?」
不只九把刀夠,和朱大夠,您也夠,多數人有自信對這個問題有判斷力的都夠

而killbane兄您的意見,和多數如上面Tomky反對這議題者們的想法,
是認為
「有專業性的問題只有有份量的人可以回答,
如果不具相關專業,則回答的一定是胡亂回答的,錯誤的機率很高」,
是吧

然而如此的想法太過刻板、太過偏狹、太過先入為主預設立場了,
如此的論點,是已先入為主將多數人預設為盲從、愚昧、缺乏判斷力後,才能得出,
但事實上卻不能成立、甚至絲毫無法成立,Why?
「因為多數人已具足夠的判斷力,判斷出自身的程度和背景知識,是否足以符合回答單一某個問題」

就如如果朱大在blog討論一個很艱深的文學問題,然後給大家討論判斷,
難道就會如你所猜想,大家不以「純文學的價值與標準」,直接胡亂回答嗎?
錯了;以這blog的精神,這時可能留言數目變得少到沒幾個,
且多數圍繞在某些皮毛、有把握回答、不會太艱深的問題上打轉,
且想回敢回有臉回這問題的人們,他們的文學素養也會是稍微偏高的,
這些意見可能沒幾個,比方10個,但全部累積起來,還是能呈現出一定的意義在,
因為以這blog的情形,大眾多數懂得「知之為知之,不知為不知,是知也」的道理,
而不如您所預設的如此愚昧,如此自以為


反之,倘若以你這句「這五個人在台灣排出來還不夠份量請問你和九把刀就夠嗎」的觀點,
認定什麼問題只要有專業,則不是大家都具專業的大眾就沒資格回答,

那乾脆禁止所有人對所有非數學物理議題發表意見的言論自由

因為任何稍微看起來不顯然,不明顯或稍稍有點深度的議題,
往往背後都牽涉極度複雜哲學專業、人類學專業、經濟學專業、社會學專業、法學專業、政治學專業、心理學專業、語言學專業...等等雜七雜八的專業,
那不是大家幾乎什麼問題都沒辦法發表意見,然後關在學院裡作研究研究到老?
(總之,不是把什麼什麼專業套在一個問題身上,大家就沒資格回答,是要看這個問題是什麼問題;
反之,如果真的出現了文學背景不足以到能討論某個真的很艱難的問題的大家,在此blog胡亂討論一個很艱難的文學問題然後胡亂發表意見,那大可那時再來罵;不過這應該不會出現)

>>現在你們也了解不算抄襲了,九把刀也緩口說不吵抄不抄的問題,是值不值的問題.
他們很早就了解是值不值的問題啦~你應該尚未把兩個blog都仔細閱讀過


>>值不值,評審說了算,

對「這個問題」而言No;上面是我的論點觀點

>>比抄不抄還不值得談.


>>這和台灣要入聯返聯一樣,公投想要就要喔.那我也公投自己不要繳稅,我家方圓五公尺就是我領土.我自己投我自己一票.反正沒別人要為了這無聊的問題表示意見,我自己說了算.

想發動公投的就去發,不想發動的就不要去發,
我是沒意見,而有意見的就去發表,沒意見的就不必理它
那是大家的自由+國際政治的問題
我通識上過國際政治導論這麼,確定國際政治是個很難很深奧的學問
和你要不要繳稅(法律規定要繳稅)、你家方圓領土(有法律規定)如何是兩碼子的問題,
深度完全不可類比,
完全引喻失義、引喻失敗

>>差不多也是該反過來說了,自認為代表網路文學的九把刀和代表網路民主新世代的朱老大您.是不是也該放手,讓純文學安安靜靜的去搞他媽的純文學.這樣可以嗎?

對,他們就是這樣子;
不過本篇主題「應不應該受獎」和「搞他媽的純文學」,
差別頗大,不大能類比,

>>說穿了,你只是純粹的想找名人麻煩而已吧.
對阿他就在找名人麻煩,不過您認為那幾位恃才傲物的評審們「將文學獎的名器棄之如敝屣」的表現,
難道不該被找麻煩嗎?




2008-03-06 @ 21:33
迴響 from: Tom [訪問者]
上面
「不過這應該不會出現」
改成
「不過這兒這blog應該不會出現」
2008-03-06 @ 21:36
迴響 from: Tom [訪問者]

「不只九把刀夠,和朱大夠,您也夠,多數人有自信對這個問題有判斷力的都夠」
改成
「不只九把刀和朱大夠回答這個獎項職不值得搬這問題,您也夠,
多數對這個問題有自信有充分判斷力判斷的都夠」
2008-03-06 @ 21:41
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
唉~~~~ 怎麼又是有人舉著前人的例子, 可是我還是覺得不知所云啊? 而且最重要的是, 我這個簡單的問題還是沒有人回答啊?

"專家到底是自己可以自封的, 還是要大家認定且信任的呢? 當大多數的人都對所謂的專家的決議有疑慮的時候, 為什麼不能表達出自己的意見呢?"

麻煩請作答, 謝謝!
2008-03-06 @ 22:10
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
  有創作需求者不可能因為發表平台的改變或功能延展停止創作.

  專業屬於小眾本理所當然,到小眾習慣網路平台作業之時同樣的作為就是另外一回事,不用講市場絕非小眾所能決定.

  衝擊文字之死?杞人憂天,歲月永遠留下它所能留下的,任何一時代永遠有人保留他們所認為有價值的,淘汰他們不想看的,曾幾何時同一領域的小眾價值觀亦是滄海桑田,大部份的時候也是跟著市場在跑.

  增加反應面積的網路平台對創作者之於普羅大眾有直接利益上關連的即是市場規模與機制,群眾是庸才,賣書是賣給群眾,寫部落格摸懶自爽也是群眾在參觀,即便一個投票是問這個狗屎你喜不喜歡,它也不會失去意義.

  要憤世嫉俗要閒聊鬼扯東南西北多的是題材,扯東扯西試圖要證明什麼一樣死在同樣的是非辨證裡.(不用講這些推砌起來的骨灰使用目的只是在質疑一個人的人格問題,當成你在說笑也一點都不好笑)
2008-03-06 @ 22:17
迴響 from: 路人丙 [訪問者]
Tom 的logic 很不錯, 謝謝分析及分享
引喻失意是容易犯的錯, 我得多小心阿
2008-03-06 @ 23:59
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
Adam:

"專家到底是自己可以自封的, 還是要大家認定且信任的呢"
這部份談到審核機制與多數決無太大相關.
2008-03-07 @ 00:41
迴響 from: Tom [訪問者]
另外收回上面「對阿他就在找名人麻煩」這句好了;
各文章中應該沒找名人麻煩的意思


另外不好意思 再補充上面
killbane雖然我上面文字上嗆了妳的想法
不過你的文字中想法中當然也必有些許可取之處
非因為我想以我的論點強烈反駁你的論點 就對妳的想法全然反對
每個留言的想法當然也對瀏覽者們產生了影響力 在閱讀之後產生反思


另外上頭也讀到一句「這個投票我覺得是一個不太有意義的事」
我覺得其必有一定程度之意義阿 只要是
1每個選項意義明確
2每個選項的票數真實性充分大,幾乎沒有灌水的成份
則此投票絕對有或大或小的意義;只是不該被虛浮地冠上什麼什麼意義的名號
而其意義在於此投票本身,在於本身投票結果的數據上呈現,
及其中所蘊涵之數不清的廣泛而複雜的變因,
及其中所牽涉到哲學專業、人類學專業、經濟學專業、生物學專業、社會學專業、政治學專業、心理學專業、語言學專業、科學專業...等多方角度之思維,
而由每個閱讀到投票結果者就本身已具備的背景知識
與各方面已知的數據作自行分析判斷



而讀到這句
「讓很多人都以為自己就是專家了,不了解也不尊重文字專業」
恰好讓我想到一位文章令我感到極度___的眾中時部落格中其中某作家,
恰好她某篇文章主旨說這個,全文語氣真是高_得不得了。
但專家的專業之所以值得被尊重之處,在於他的作品、論點、成果、所作所為等要經得起考驗,那麼專業便無法被撼動
2008-03-07 @ 00:42
迴響 from: 苦行 [訪問者]
1.一個"需要客觀看法"的議題討論,在開頭裡放入不少”我覺得”?

2.純文學搞自閉搞很久了(當然啦,不是說網路上一堆YY就是好事)

3.剛開投類票的時候,俺就說是自HIGH啦,不過依然肯定廣大網友以"個人"的名義去針對這議題做討論並投票的行為,即使是"朱胖你這婊子"之類的言論也同樣是網友們在觀察這幾天的經過之後得出來的...好吧,有可能是想看某遺言的網站結果被騙來這裡,順便罵一罵這樣.....

4.朱先生不找名人麻煩還蠻奇怪的?尤其是當名人搞出一些麻煩的時候

5.個人建議再辦個投票,已經想好投票選項:

(1)朱先生該為正妹閱讀率促進月之宣導不實,處以吃鞋之刑
(2)朱先生該為正妹閱讀率促進月之宣導不實,處以舔襪之刑
(3)朱先生該為正妹閱讀率促進月之宣導不實,處以剃毛之刑(?)
(4)朱先生該為正妹閱讀率促進月之宣導不實,處以瘦身之刑
(5)朱大是男人中的男人!!!
(6)朱胖你這死阿宅!!

嘖,想想好像不對,第五跟第六個選項完全沒有牴觸到.....
2008-03-07 @ 00:59
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
目白兄,

我知道審核機制原本是跟多數決扯不上什麼關係, 但是在這件事情上面, 許多人已經對審核的結果產生疑慮了, 卻仍是有少部分的人一直說這是專家的決定, 不容置疑, 雖然他們是主辦單位推舉出來的評審, 但是為什麼我們就不能有自己的看法跟意見?

一方面要我們無腦的服從所謂的專家, 一方面又數落我們這邊在搞無腦崇拜, 所以我想請這些人對這種矛盾提出一個合理的解釋.
2008-03-07 @ 01:20
迴響 from: 專家是王道? [訪問者]
>>自認為代表網路文學的九把刀和代表網路民主新世代的朱老大您.是不是也該放手,讓純文學安安靜靜的去搞他媽的純文學

我很訝異出現跑出這句話來,"網路文學算不算文學"這樣的議題早就戰到爛了,我懶的多說!

何謂專家?專家由誰決定?專家的基礎是什麼?

我的問題其實跟Adam差不多,「專家」爲什麼是專家?
2008-03-07 @ 04:08
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
"自認為代表網路文學的九把刀和代表網路民主新世代的朱老大您.是不是也該放手,讓純文學安安靜靜的去搞他媽的純文學"

這也是另一個讓我覺得莫名其妙的論點, 我們這些上網的人, 難道就沒有現實生活啦? 我們不用賺錢? 不用吃飯睡覺? 不會看電視報紙? 不會買書來看? 不會去看所謂的純文學? 只因為我們在網路上討論事情, 就是活在不同的世界裡? 就沒資格評論現實世界發生的事情? 這是什麼道理啊? 有人能解釋一下嗎?

還有, 即使不願意浪費生命去把大家提出的意見看完, 至少也花點腦袋想清楚爭論的議題在哪裡吧? 我們質疑的不是評審本身專不專業, 我們質疑的是這些評審處理這件事情的方式. 我不會去質疑一個人的學位是真是假, 但是我總可以質疑他某件事情處理的不好吧?
2008-03-07 @ 11:18
迴響 from: killbane [訪問者]
不知道專家是什麼?這句話就充份表現傲慢了.
不知道什麼是專家,去醫院一趟吧.你會公投醫生要採用什麼療法嗎?你可以和醫生溝通藥如何如何,大部份人只能求醫生說可不可以給我好一點的藥好一點的病床好一點的照顧......
什麼是專家?
網路投票這種事只是充份滿足自我傲慢的一種方式而已.
你會說醫學和文學不一樣,這就是了.
我們會尊重醫學,不過文學好像生活少了它也沒什麼,何況感覺我們都懂啊,我讀了十幾年的國文,怎麼不懂?
樓上有個說難道對數學物理議題就不能發表意見嗎?可以是可以啊?請你說個例子來聽聽,我想聽一下.
所以問題不是可不可以,是不會嘛.物理數學發展到現代,沒受過訓練的外行是不太可能可以提什麼創見的.
可是為什麼在小說這事上頭,盡管經過網路這麼多討論,說明拋開該生的道德問題,以事實來看是不能認定為抄襲.而大家不願意去了解體會相信這其中的分別.這不是傲慢是什麼?

回到問題.我的問題徵結很簡單.就是我能體會純文學有一些另外的標準,因為我有認識些純文藝的朋友,我本身只是想寫通俗,所以其中的講究是不一樣的.所以我可以體會那是不一樣的一個競技領域.

回到文學獎值不值?這當然可以說各人心證?你要問我我覺得值.
朱老大辦了這麼多奇幻文學獎,有得到什麼偉大的作品嗎?有挖掘出什麼作家嗎?(對不起我可能見識淺薄在這領域不是很懂,可能真的有也不一定.)問朱老大值不值?他覺得值就值.這事需要辦公投嗎?
公投的目地結果,不就是粗體寫的這句:這是10894個意見,1181篇討論,對抗5個沈默的評審,對抗1個只願「到此為止」的主辦單位。

搞出這種結論,不就是只是在仗著人多想間接證明自己沒錯,是人數為少數的評審錯了.
這除了讓我得到只想找名人麻煩的結論之外,還能推導到什麼結論嗎?

本來上一篇公投時我就反對過.不過朱大說:我在自家辦辦投票,我想知道大眾看法.
這不行嗎?
的確沒有不行,我也被說服了.你要辦投票是你家的事.的確沒什麼不行,我硬要說不行,那也管太大.

不過不出如料的確結論還是導向這種階級對抗.所以還是忍不住出來罵一下.

你說我就是一輩子只看通俗小說或網路文學(或九把刀文學).我就是不想懂文學,就是不想懂數學物理科學......我的生活還是可以過啊.
不過不想懂就請學習謙卑安靜一點.只是這樣而已.
朱老大如果就是對現有那些文學界大老有意見,不是不行,只是也不用這樣要有一萬多個人站在前面才敢說話,不要扯什麼網路集體智慧.請說點道理出來.
2008-03-07 @ 11:36
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
科科~~~~ 又抬出醫生當例子, 那我想請問一下, 如果你不相信這個醫生對你的健康有幫助, 你還會去看嗎? 而且醫生就絕對不會犯錯嗎? 那醫療疏失怎麼來的? 該不會說是病人應該要乖乖服從, 因為醫生是受過專業訓練的, 絕對不可能犯錯?

"不過不出如料的確結論還是導向這種階級對抗.所以還是忍不住出來罵一下." ---- 嘖嘖嘖..... 階級的字眼都跑出來了, 我還是一樣的問題, 我不質疑這些評審的專業, 但是我為什麼不能質疑他們處理這件事情的方式? 請說個道理出來, 謝謝!
2008-03-07 @ 12:02
迴響 from: lytitia [訪問者]
To 專家是王道?

在下的一點拙見:科學界中所謂的專家,最重要的一點就是在他所研究的題目上,花了大量心力與時間的人。然後能對他研究的題目比一般人更為了解,那就是專家。其中很重要的一個前提是,僅限於他研究的題目上。離開他專長的狹隘領域,就跟普通人沒兩樣,在學界也常聽老師在說:隔行(研究題目)如隔山。所以專家不是指靠這東西混口飯吃的人,而是他努力研究,得到知識,外人才給予他專家的頭銜。就跟個PhD一樣,沒有貢獻,沒有學位。

好啦,以下是我的問題:五位評審對於奇幻文學所花的時間到底能不能被稱為奇幻文學的專家?
(抱歉,我不太會分類,請好心人幫我訂正,陳生的文章算哪一種小說。)

今天要審一個看起來像奇幻文學性質的文章,要我相信專家的說法也先回答我他是不是專家吧。相信許多愛看奇幻文學的網友,花在看古今中外各家小說的時間可能還更多。雖然對這些網友而言,寫文章不見得是專長,但是當個有思考力和判斷力的讀者應該還辦得到,畢竟看了那麼多文章。(當影評人不需要會拍電影,當有判斷力的讀者應該不需要被要求會寫小說吧?)

所以我相信支持朱大或九把刀的人,並非都沒經過自己的判斷,就隨之起舞。

當然我也不覺得反對朱大的人是笨蛋:我相信寫原創小說是很困難的,就算文風受到他人影響都是理所當然的,甚至可以抄襲改寫拿去投稿得獎我也不反對,因為我相信作者經過自己的改寫,改得夠好,就是創新所在,雖然文章流程的原創性可能不是那麼的高。不過就跟做研究引用別人的方法一樣可被接受,但重點是:請註明引用出處。

題外話:做研究想發paper都要仔細查過有沒有跟其他人發表類似的部分。如果有,就算自己是想到的點子都要硬生生吞回去,註明是引用他人的文章,然後發到比那人所發更低點數的期刊上。
2008-03-07 @ 12:07
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
哇~~~~ 好像少打了一個tag, 變成上一篇的字越來越大, 不過這樣也不錯, 蠻醒目的, 只是不知道我的問題是不是又會被人刻意忽略了.
2008-03-07 @ 12:20
迴響 from: killbane [訪問者]
態度,那問題就應該是指著評審說你們態度錯了,不是什麼值不值得獎的鳥題目.
邏輯都搞不清楚的人,還自以為非常有判斷力.不要笑掉人大牙了.
另外樓上的,台北文學獎青春組不是朱大或九把刀自己辦的奇幻文學獎.九把刀和朱老大總想要別人都聽他的,就是傲慢自大到一個很難理解的程度.

態度,講個實例好了,老是舉一些假設性的例子你們不覺得很空虛嗎?
前不久華生(發現DNA結構的那位),絕對是大師,沒有問題,可是前不久一些發言牽扯到了敏感的種族議題.
結果引來喧然大波,華生已經很老了,學術地位也非常的高,還是道歉.

所以專家態度當然可以質疑.
但回頭看,這事件這五位專家做了什麼不對的事,想請問一下.

不召開第二次評議會就是不對嗎?有抄襲嗎?沒有,那幹嘛要第二次評議.憑什麼要人召開第二次評議?
只不過是我想要就想要,傲慢,白話點叫大頭症.
2008-03-07 @ 12:28
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]

如果有人腦筋清楚一點,真的嘗試去了解些什麼:

  比方說類似像 "什麼人才有資格擔任學生文學比賽評審"之流的問題,還有"台灣所辦大大小小的文學獎是誰找誰來當評審"

  當他發現第一個問題還真他媽是個難以找出標準答案的大哉問,第二個問題的部份答案竟然和他所自以為的專業有所違背,到這步田地再滾回網路任何一個討論串去看自己的發言幼不幼稚丟不丟臉。

  什麼東西叫做理直氣壯是建立於極度的無知之上,不是你選哪一方相信即能避免。
  
2008-03-07 @ 12:31
迴響 from: 唉呀 [訪問者]
To lytitia
喔喔
視網路文學為垃圾的大家們
不小心把抄襲(模仿.臨摹......anyway)
老刀的文章評佳作
發覺以後像吃了滿嘴大便一樣難受
想殺那學生的心都有了
當然別說配合老刀教化學生了
你的問題太尖銳了
鬧大的話說不定那五位會自殺
這種行為叫落井下石......
回應題外話
實驗四年
幫金主砸了300多萬
寫好paper那天查詢關鍵字時
發現當天拿到的期刊有跟自己相同的標題
於是捏緊卵蛋吞下眼淚撕了自己的paper
這慘劇有沒有聽過?
2008-03-07 @ 12:56
迴響 from: lytitia [訪問者]
To 唉呀

感謝您的提醒,原來我問的問題太尖銳了,實在是相當對不起,還盼眾網友與評審們大人有大量不跟小女子計較。

回應題外話
在下才疏學淺,這慘劇沒聽過,難不成苦主就是閣下?
2008-03-07 @ 13:37
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
唉唷,killbane大概是社會經驗不太夠,沒看過真正的驕傲自大是什麼。讓我來示範一下吧。

「小弟我手中評審過的公私部門預算超過十億新台幣,你全家人跟那五個評審加起來一輩子都賺不到,要說評審,我可是專家,既然我是專家,哪還輪的到你打字,去去去,到角落去畫圈圈去,大人玩的事情哪輪的到小孩子插嘴,等你有資格評審這麼多預算的時候再來跟我談評審這回事!」

咳咳,這才叫做專業的驕傲自大吧!我想許多發言者都沒有意識到,真要談發言資格,你大概要繞地球兩三圈之後才會排的到你在我面前講話吧?

不過我一向都是很和善,不會這樣說話的啦。因為我相信網友是平等的,不會三天兩頭拿什麼專家概念捧在手心啦。

Lucifer

不過我評審過的預算倒真是超過十億新台幣呀~~~搞不好有十幾億.....

但我依!舊!是!個!謙!虛!的!阿宅!

2008-03-07 @ 14:29
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
嗯嗯, 不談假設性的例子了, 要談邏輯了, 很好, 那就來談邏輯吧!

"台北文學獎青春組不是朱大或九把刀自己辦的奇幻文學獎.九把刀和朱老大總想要別人都聽他的,就是傲慢自大到一個很難理解的程度."

九把刀我不知道, 但是朱大怎樣要別人都聽他的? 這我也很難理解..... 難道今天朱大說投票結果有超過85%的人希望撤銷獎項, 主辦單位就會真的撤銷獎項? 還是說朱大認為評審不願負責, 交由網友投票決定, 所以以後主辦單位也不找評審了, 開放給網友投票表決得獎名次? 這裡的部落格文章跟討論, 還有投票結果, 能改變什麼嗎? 閣下您始終都持反對意見, 這裡有誰強迫您一定要認同朱大的嗎? 不知道您認定朱大想要別人都聽他的, 是怎樣的邏輯跟證據讓閣下您產生這樣的結論? 邏輯說不清楚沒關係, 能舉證就好了, 們不會笑掉大牙的.

"所以專家態度當然可以質疑.
但回頭看,這事件這五位專家做了什麼不對的事,想請問一下."


當許多人發現陳生不只一篇文章有多處相似的巧合, 而提出質疑的時候, 這五位評審是怎麼處理的? 哦... 因為階級不同, 所以不屑跟我們這些鄉民解釋, 說了我們也不會懂是嗎? 因為是專家, 所以只要說沒抄就是沒抄, 因為是專家, 所以說不招開第二次評議會, "到此為止"就好了, 可是我們的疑問還是沒得到解答啊! 而且掏錢買書看文章的, 也是我們這些低下的鄉民啊! 為什麼我們不能有疑問? 不能有自己的意見跟看法? 只因為我們不是專家嗎? 可是文學作品不是只寫給專家看的啊!

哦... 糟糕, 我又舉了很多假設性的例子, 那來說事實好了, 事實就是, 評審還是繼續不願出面給大家一個可以信服的解釋, 大家的疑問也依舊存在, 所以這邊辦了一個投票, 讓大家以自己的意見跟看法來表決該不該得獎, 而閣下您您則是跳出來罵大家, 不應該質疑專家的決定, 既然是專家, 決定的事情就不會錯, 專家絕對比我們專業, 所以我們只要服從專家就好了, 不應該有自己的看法跟意見. 情況是這樣沒錯吧?

"只不過是我想要就想要,傲慢,白話點叫大頭症."
閣下您的論點一再跟大家強調這次的評審都是專家, 專家的決定不會錯的, 這是不是跟您前面說的,"總想要別人都聽他的,就是傲慢自大到一個很難理解的程度"一樣, 要大家都聽您的, 不該反對評審的決議? 可是我們這邊沒有人強迫您一定要認同朱大耶! 我們只是質疑為什麼我們就一定要服從專家, 不能有自己的看法跟意見? 所以照邏輯上來說, 這頂"大頭症"的帽子還是留在閣下您自己的手上, 沒有送出去哦!

科科

(我也開始愛用科科來結尾了)
2008-03-07 @ 14:32
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
該死!朱老放無雙!
2008-03-07 @ 14:39
唉。


所謂「...不就是只是在『仗著人多』想間接證明自己沒錯,是人數為少數的評審錯了」

...這句話我不懂。killbane的意思是說,只要頂著「專家」的光環,就可以不用接受大眾的檢驗嗎?

人多如果有錯,那請進行修憲,改為得票數較少的人才能當選總統吧。

...難道說在自己小小的領域中有了一點知名度,就可以為所欲為了嗎?

你猜,常來這個網站留言的宅友之中有沒有「專家」?

我猜不少人,包括在下在內,都有自己比較熟悉的領域。但大部分的人可沒有這麼大頭。

...或者是,純文學的世界當真就比較高貴?!

就算是好了...(其實我並不這麼認為。首先,誰先來告訴我什麼是純文學,什麼不是純文學。詩經,也不過就是古代人的流行歌曲合集而已。)

那麼,誰來解釋一下,當代純文學代表風流人物評審諸公,為什麼竟會將一篇章法結構、用字遣詞根本就跟某位網路文學作家的作品幾近相同的小說,評為某純文學獎的佳作呢?

(說不定,網路文學原來與純文學就只是一線之隔啊...)

您說,是誰在傲慢?

科科~~

(啊,「科科」是抄襲朱大的創意...這6個字我來說:「我錯了,對不起」)
2008-03-07 @ 14:51
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
"因為我相信網友是平等的,不會三天兩頭拿什麼專家概念捧在手心啦。"

以目前台灣的局面來看,這真是樂觀的要命...
當然這一切會改變.
2008-03-07 @ 14:56
迴響 from: 唉呀 [訪問者]
朱大在泰國一定很爽
所以不想在這多糾纏

一招把人打死
我們不就沒得玩了
===================
To lytitia
苦主不是我
實驗室因此低氣壓一年多
當時......
不能偷閒打電動看電影真的很難受
2008-03-07 @ 15:08
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
唉呀,就說我其實沒有這樣說,因為我是一個和善的人!

Lucifer

誰人打的太極拳,誰人使的獅吼功?
2008-03-07 @ 15:21
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
不過十幾億是很驚人的數字.

朱老到底評過多少東西阿----------------

(你的書裡經歷沒寫啊啊啊阿阿阿阿)
2008-03-07 @ 15:25
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
難道我是賽亞星的王子也要告訴你?

其實我跟李小龍是好朋友這件事也不需要多講吧.....

Lucifer
2008-03-07 @ 15:28
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
這些八卦能促進正妹閱讀率, 這是一定要說的啦!
2008-03-07 @ 15:32
迴響 from: 機車妹 [訪問者]
我看了有些人的文章
也很能理解他們的立論根據
我基本上覺得這個投票是很沒意義的
我知道有些人不同意專家的評判 認為有誤
這個立意是好 並不是專家都是對的
但我覺得透過這一個投票根本達不到妳們想要改善的目的
其一這是一個很粗糙的投票
就只有兩個選項
其二也沒有組成份子的分析
你要挑戰專家的判斷很好
你至少要先建立說服別人的可信度
讓別人覺得你說的話有價值
可是我從這個投票根本看不到
第一我們看到了投票的人數 跟有很多不同國家 然後呢
如果說 今天投票的人是 80%以上從事文學創作工作者(亂說一個數字的 就是指大多數)
百分之多少的有當文學評審的經驗
百分之多少曾在國內或國外得過文學獎 是否可信度變大很多
主辦單位 就知道不可輕忽這些有異議者的聲音
當別人不知道這些資訊 當然就覺得你只是一些外行人在說外行話
不說品格低落的評審 就算是一個很有聲望的評審
也不想花時間 先告訴我們文學如何評 那從那裏看
那他會叫你先去修文學評論的課
他為什麼要花這麼多時間先教會你再告訴你為甚麼他這麼評
當所有你能提供的只有數字多這一點上時 就很難叫人信服

2008-03-07 @ 15:42
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
該死!有些問題就是要等正妹開口問才得的到答案!

阿宅的命不是命...orz
2008-03-07 @ 15:43
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
機車妹:
  不作多餘的吹捧,有興趣可以看看近年來設計相關比賽有些開放網友票選人氣獎理由為何(雖然很多是選心酸的),很多作為關係到的改變與影響無關乎真理不真理,而是利益不利益。
  當前網路多數決機制即使不算成熟但也不會永遠幼稚下去,在多數評審將市場列入考量很多東西會有所改變。
2008-03-07 @ 15:51
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
另:
  比較不妙的是,談到市場的問題保證會有一堆雞教派開始作藝術不藝術純粹不純粹商業化不商業化價值不價值的辯白......Orz.

  這時候就會有像俺這種咖在網路上跟著打嘴砲,別人看的好空虛,俺回的好快樂。
2008-03-07 @ 16:08
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
目白兄,

這也不失為一個紓壓解悶的方式啊! 學朱大放一下無雙, 把一堆雜魚震飛, 也是有益身心的, 科科~~~~~

不過朱大人在泰國, 應該多了很多舒壓解悶的選項, 科科科科~~~~~
2008-03-07 @ 16:18
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
俺當然是雜魚阿.

科科科科科.
2008-03-07 @ 16:22
迴響 from: killbane [訪問者]
了不起,幾十億都出來了.
不過評幾十億和自己賺幾十億是兩回事.
何況就算郭台銘就有資格在別的領域置喙嗎?這一點都不構成什麼謙虛的反證.
不正面回答問題,開始左右言他.
不過也沒關係啦,總要有個台階下.

有些人咬著專家都不會錯這點.
我沒說專家都不會錯(是你們理解錯或者想把我論述拖到另一個混水中).只是已經有足夠多的論述支持這些專家的結論.這些說理論述其實很清楚明白.相較之下反面的論述就是很像而已.

不是路上隨便找到的人覺得像就是自己的種,要驗DNA才比較科學.現在情況很明顯了,朱大和九把刀死咬著長得像就一定是自己的種.就一定要人家的小孩叫自己老爸,差不多就是這回事.然後專家說這個DNA驗起來不像啊.然後就發動網路公投,叫大家看看像不像,然後一堆只懂看皮相的人都說啊好像好像,這一定是在外面偷生的沒錯.然後說好吧,現在我也不希望別人的小孩叫我老爸了,我養不起也不想養,只是你們看啊,那些專家啊,連一般人都不如啊......

算了,說下去也是無限迴圈在鬼打牆了.很多事別人也都說過了.反正說也說不通.要因為自己的外行傲慢自取其辱下去也不關我的事了.
2008-03-07 @ 16:36
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
  已經很明白的跟你講你現在連這行評審是從哪裡來的都不知道何來專業價值之界定?你以為創意產業的專業是像司法官律師醫生會計師在考證照的咻!
  很多常識性的知識是明白了才有梗有梗才有理有理才有料,這個1不知道那個不知道文章怎麼寫筆戰怎麼打都是一樣的啦。
2008-03-07 @ 16:52
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
我就知道朱大放出十幾億的無雙, 還是會被人認為在臭屁........

不過說到顧左右而言他, 閣下也沒回答到底朱大是哪裡要求別人要聽他的啦? 您的舉證在哪啊? 反倒是您一直要別人聽你的, 不該對這件事情有異議, 難道我就不能有自己的想法啊? 請問閣下, 您哪位啊? 我們是外行自取其辱, 這麼說來您也是個專家囉? 所以您說的話, 大家就該聽您不能懷疑啊?

"只是已經有足夠多的論述支持這些專家的結論.這些說理論述其實很清楚明白."

是啊 ! 都還有人搬出解構法, 又佐以前人的一堆例證, 可是大家還是懷疑啊! 為什麼相似的巧合這麼多? 這些論述只能說明文章相似之處是有可能發生的, 但還是不能解釋為什麼相似的巧合會一再重複發生在不只一篇的文章中啊! 既然這部份沒有合理的解釋, 為什麼我們不能繼續懷疑?

唉! 自己才說過假設性的例子很空虛, 結果又舉個DNA的例子. 那就繼續用邏輯討論吧! DNA有科學理論跟方式來驗證, 請問文學的科學理論與驗證方式是啥? 難道可以在實驗室裡跑個電泳圖, 就解讀出文學的DNA啦? 很多專業可以用證照來驗證專業程度, 可是文學呢? 有證照嗎?

請舉出有說服力的道理跟例證吧(所以像DNA這種沒有說服力的以後就不必了吧)! 別再說什麼因為評審是專家, 這些專家的作為並沒有消除我們的疑慮, 也別只是說"已經有足夠多的論述支持這些專家的結論"就一筆帶過, 這些論述還是不能說明為什麼會重複發生這麼多相似的巧合. 而閣下您自己的看法跟論述在哪呢? 您這麼堅定要求我們相信評審就是對的理由是什麼呢? 您下這些定論的邏輯又是怎樣推導出來的呢?

當然閣下您也可以繼續咬定我們就是外行不懂又愛胡鬧, 這樣找台階下也是不錯的. 而且我們很和善的, 不會因為這樣而取笑您的

科科

哎呀! 又好巧合的跟朱大一樣用科科, 不過我有解構法跟前人的例證可以證明, 這一再出現的絕對都是巧合, 不是抄襲
2008-03-07 @ 17:41
迴響 from: Tom [訪問者]
「現在情況很明顯了,朱大和九把刀死咬著長得像就一定是自己的種.
就一定要人家的小孩叫自己老爸,差不多就是這回事」
妳才沒弄清來龍去脈,陷入在自己的框框中跳不出來,和之前公投自己要不要繳稅一樣不知所云
妳還在講沒抄襲是吧~這「沒抄襲」很早就人盡皆知了,所有人都知道,只有妳以為大家都不知道
陳漢寧他曾說他沒看過九把刀的如對照表中的原作,卻「說他完全是自行原創的」,你信嗎?
評審並用獎項去肯定他所宣稱的原創,妳認為公允嗎?
全部的焦點放在這兩點。妳連文章都不讀,說些廢話,有用處嗎?
2008-03-07 @ 19:10
迴響 from: Tom [訪問者]
「有抄襲嗎?沒有,那幹嘛要第二次評議」
另外這句絕對錯誤;因為是否要第二次評審,
「不在於有沒抄襲,而在於之前所評合不合理、在於以仿作而來的作品
卻自稱為原創的缺乏誠信之創作者值不值得得獎」
2008-03-07 @ 19:13
迴響 from: Tom [訪問者]
「只是已經有足夠多的論述支持這些專家的結論.這些說理論述其實很清楚明白」
無,無任何論述,可以說他完全是自行原創的
而明明無的事可以說成有,太傲慢了吧
討論了很久仍摸不清討論的主題,仍繼續傲慢狂妄地自取其辱 不簡單
killbane妳還是先搞清楚討論主題

2008-03-07 @ 19:18
迴響 from: Tom [訪問者]
「但回頭看,這事件這五位專家做了什麼不對的事,想請問一下.」
將文學獎頒給把從別人的文章改作而來的作品,卻堅稱從未讀過原作的騙子,視文學獎之名器為無物這樣

2008-03-07 @ 19:23
迴響 from: Tom [訪問者]
一個投票中所呈現出的各個數據,其意義就是它「本身所內蘊的意義某種深奧複雜的意義」;
而不能夠因為說它呈現出了什麼結果,就「先入為主地預想、斷言設立投票者欲藉由投票結果來表達什麼立場」
我想killbane妳的盲點在於:
「胡亂地自覺發起投票者欲藉由票數所呈現出的結果,去對群眾產生誤導」
+
「心態狂妄傲慢」
+
「從沒搞清主題、方向,接著不斷地胡亂作比喻,然後比喻的內容跟主旨無關」
如比喻入聯公投和公投要不要繳稅,比喻什麼基因和孩子,作不相干的比喻
+
[無中生有,作隨地的指控謾罵]
如上面Adam對妳所批評的這句「九把刀和朱老大總想要別人都聽他的,就是傲慢自大到一個很難理解的程度.」


besides,如一個博士的假如他很有權威,接著他的權威某天因為一件事被他人們質疑了,
那們此博士此時之權威上的展現,絕非拿title來壓人,說自己多厲害有發過什麼論文、著作、資歷...等,
而是以個人的淵博學問、明確的論述、本身的專業去服人,
去實地明確地回擊其他非專業者對他專業的質疑,這才算是專業

譬如說如果一位醫生其醫學上的專業被a質疑了,
那他展現專業的方式,在於「以自身所學明確地回擊指正a的質疑」,
而非「我是醫生有專業,你沒專業有資格向我挑戰?,所以不大想理會你」
這幾位評審就是這一型的
2008-03-07 @ 19:43
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
"這幾位評審就是這一型的"

不對,不回應網民不見得是傲慢的作法,相反的,越是自由心證的議題最好減少廢話以避免橫生枝節是常見的收尾方式是也.
  
2008-03-07 @ 19:53
迴響 from: Tom [訪問者]
恩~ 目白說的也有道理
那我也收回這句好了
2008-03-07 @ 20:42
迴響 from: 使徒8 [訪問者]
樓上兩大強者練功練太爽,害我不好意思橫毆啦...囧
搶經驗值這種事我也沒興趣,您倆老繼續爽吧


====
對了,有人質疑辦網路投票是群眾暴力或盲從
...那我從社會學的觀點來解析一下好了

從留言觀察中可以看出朱大blog的使用者族群比較接近群眾而非大眾

這也是我對這次投票比較有信心水準的原因
即使來亂或是意識型態的,恐怕也是少數(不然需要灌票嗎lol)


好,講到這裡為止啦,內行看門道外行看熱鬧吧
要專業是吧?看誰能反駁我啊
wiki查這些專有名詞不難吧,一般人大概也能說個道理出來喔w

那幾個說要相信專家的,快來跟我戰
如果不能反駁我,就聽我這個專家的吧

科科~
2008-03-07 @ 22:36
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
文學上的這種抄襲與否的爭論, 真的只能自由心證, 而且很無奈的是, 除了當事人自己, 旁人永遠只能找出各種論述來做出自己的結論, 卻沒人能夠知道真相, 即使是所謂的專家亦然. 為什麼? 很簡單的邏輯啊! 現在還沒有任何一種機制可以制止人類說謊, 所以誰能夠證明當事人說的一定是實話或是謊話呢? 既然無法證明, 任何人(就算是專家也一樣)不管怎樣證述都只是推論而已, 都不能代表事實. 甚至連投票表決, 也只是統計大家的意見而已, 還是不能當作事實. 所以我覺得在這件事情上爭論到底有沒有抄襲其實一點意義都沒有, 每個人都可以做出自己的推論, 也可以選擇接受別人的推論, 這也是我在那篇破六百的留言討論裡面, 一直當個旁觀者而已, 沒有參予討論是否抄襲的爭議.

不過我不能接受的是, 既然是自由心證的東西, 又不可能做出代表事實的結論, 為什麼有人要跳出來強迫別人接受自己的看法? 或是所謂專家的看法? 就是不讓別人的意見跟自己或是專家不一樣? 每個人都有權利做自己的思考判斷跟決定, 也有權利說出自己的看法, 別人可以不認同我的看法, 但是沒有人有資格抹煞我這種權利, 甚至強迫我去接受他的答案. 這是我會在這邊跳出來反駁的原因.

也許有人會跳出來說, 既然投票的結果也不能代表事實, 那辦投票幹啥? 不就只是自爽嗎? 網路投票只是一種最直接最方便的方式來統計大家的意見, 因為不是每個人都會上來留言討論自己的看法, 而且從留言討論中, 也看不出來贊成正反兩方的人數有多少. 所以投票不過就是個統計而已, 本身不能改變或改善什麼(那些猛扣"民粹","群眾暴力"這些帽子的人, 我倒很想聽聽看他們是怎樣的邏輯做出這種結論). 但是如果大家都願意開始運用自己的思考跟判斷能力, 在看過相關的資料跟大家的討論, 做出自己的結論, 不管投下是正方或是反方, 這都是一種進步, 都會使群眾智慧更加成熟.

專家? 不就也是個人? 專家也是提出自己的看法跟意見啊! 我認同是因為我自己思考判斷後選擇認同, 不是只因為這是專家說的!

科科 (雖然好像不太搭, 但還是忍不住要科科~~~)

P.S. 跟killbane的討論, 如果能促使他開始提出自己的思考邏輯跟看法, 而不是一味的抬出"專家"這塊招牌或是說別人有很多論述贊成專家的結論了, 那麼這也是一種進步啊! (遠目.............)
2008-03-07 @ 23:29
迴響 from: 機車妹 [訪問者]
To 目白兄
我了解你的立論所在 所以我也知道很多競賽都有人氣票選等等
可是就如同你說的 他們就只是代表大眾的喜好 獲的大家青睞是一種榮譽
但還無法很有力的說就專業而言 大眾選出的東西就是在專業上是比較好的
所以就是專家評他們覺得從專業角度上是好的作品 跟網友選出他們心中的喜好
可並存也會對彼此有影響 但要完全去干涉專家的評判 我覺得是不可能
就如我說的要改善的立意是好的 但想做到挑戰專家的觀點
藉由這麼一個沒有很嚴謹的投票方式 效果很有限

To Tom
你說這有很多背後的意義 大家都下了錯誤的假設
我覺得當你展現的方是沒有說服力時 想要別人知道這背後巨大的義義根本不太實際
誰能從簡短的結果中 數字 國家 而能想到他背後的意義 可能揣測得機率會大很多
更何況朱大他說的方式就是 請看我們有這麼多人的投票 從哪摸多國家
他不是也說了因為這麼多人表達意見 希望評審 或作者在做類似的事時能想一想
這就是他想達到的 而我就是覺得這個粗糙的投票的不到這個目的
更是把你要想很多學家去研究背後意義的期許 完全抹煞

你說很多人預設這裡投票的人都盲從 是不對的 但事實時我們根本無從得知
也許如你所說大家都不盲從但也同時有可能大家都盲從 but who knows?

To Adam:
大家都有評論的自由 也有自己思考的邏輯 但只是主辦單位不為認為你的言論可信罷了
你希望藉由投票達到大家努力自己思考判斷 這早就得到了 你要投票統計 讓我們開心也ok
這就是透過這次票得到的最大成績 是讓大家練習獨立思考的機會
那投完票就該結束了 但就不該需要再進一步想拿這樣結果而去妄想要挑戰專家的看法
這就是我覺得沒意義的事

不行太累了 先去睡 spring break 大放假 yeah~ :)

2008-03-08 @ 14:27
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
其實就說科科兩個字就解決了,不願意被救的人,是沒有辦法被拯救的啊!

Lucifer


而且其實我是個和善的人,所以評過十幾億預算一點也不算什麼......而且我也會很親切的灌水回應說~~~

就說要做功課,大陸法系的陪審團制度許多時候律師還要特意避免專家參與呢......

戰力這麼小實在無法湧起戰意呀~~~~
2008-03-08 @ 14:41
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
朱老...

陪審制度是英美法系吧...Orz...
2008-03-08 @ 15:03
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
更,泰國太熱,竟然正好打成相反,唉.....

這樣我就因為罪惡感不能去偷拍那長的像是安達佑實縮小版的攤販了呀.....

Lucifer
2008-03-08 @ 15:08
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
機車妹:

  你太把群眾當成固定的一群人在看了,
專家的價值觀與標準會隨著時代在變,群眾的組成自然也是。
要否定目前這個作為非常簡單,
直接說明其投票人數太少不可信,
直接指出發表意見的網友幼稚不可取,
上面兩個隨便選一個論點都可以很快的否定當前的作為是否有達到發起人的目的。
  但單以這次結果要證明該作為可不可行就是另一回事。

  太多單純的思維模式太多處於"是與非","可行,不可行","因為,所以"的辯正裡:如同在網路上討論何謂中肯意見有很多論述不是以事業經營的方式去思考目的方法與結果的可能性,你可能會看到一堆沒有實際創業經驗不懂經營,不懂管理的人物,卻能振振有辭的拿著幾個不恰當的例子否定任何可能。
  
  講直接一點,當前任何人參加文學比賽獲獎與否的確可以與群眾無關,他確實可以當一輩子獎棍,或窩在某單位立地生根,永遠不用出書接受市場的檢視,這與現實利益最有關聯,很多問題直接以利益交換的視角切入,將得到凌駕於自由心證的結論與可能。

  
2008-03-08 @ 15:34
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
另:

  找問題與漏洞永遠容易,找可能卻不是這麼一回事,找可能還要實踐它,難上加難。
2008-03-08 @ 15:40
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
靠杯。

贅字未刪
2008-03-08 @ 15:50
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
"這樣我就因為罪惡感不能去偷拍那長的像是安達佑實縮小版的攤販了呀....."

這樣只好去洗泰國浴囉...還真無奈...
2008-03-08 @ 16:12
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
To: 機車妹

我並沒有要挑戰專家的想法, 我只是不贊成有人搬專家的招牌來強迫大家接受, 這才是沒意義的事情.

一部藝術電影可以有一堆專家提出上百種見解, 但是每個人看完之後都還是有自己的感想, 文學作品不也是一樣嗎?

吃東西的時候是自己覺得好吃, 還是老闆說好吃妳就認為好吃呢?
2008-03-08 @ 17:04
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
"這樣我就因為罪惡感不能去偷拍那長的像是安達佑實縮小版的攤販了呀....."

朱大! 快去拍吧! 不然在眾阿宅關愛的眼神下, 你會更有罪惡感的!

科科~~~
2008-03-08 @ 17:13
迴響 from: lytitia [訪問者]
To killbane

很抱歉這麼晚回你,因為我們中間隔了一樓,實在不確定你是不是在說我。如果不是就不用看了。

唉,我會要求驗明專家的正身,也是因為不曉得誰先提出專家審核才是專業的。但是不巧我知道專業領域通常是很狹隘的,所以我問了幾位評審的專業是在哪方面,好確定他們擅長的是哪些領域。(問句不夠委婉,我道歉。)畢竟文學是很遼闊的阿,做學問也是無止境的阿。如果我今天請教一個中文訓詁學的專家有關外文笑話的優劣,這專家又恰好看不懂某些外文笑點,那我可以很合理的懷疑自己找錯人了吧?就是因為這樣,要相信專家的審核,必須要其所審文件是和他專業領域相同的才行。日本的開運鑑定團也會找不同領域的專家去鑑定不同領域的物品,是一樣的。

你說文學獎和朱大搞奇幻是兩碼子事,我完全贊成,他們愛找誰當評審是他們的自由。但是就專家來審專業這一點而言,我不同意說沒確認專家的專業領域和所審的文章領域一致之前,就說審的人一定是這一行的專家,畢竟主辦人找專家之前考量是甚麼我也不知道。如果某人說文學的領域只有一個,找誰都一樣,只會顯示這人對文學的理解還有很大的進步空間而已。所以拜託別再告訴我評審是專家,他們當然是某領域的專家,否則主辦單位老早就會失去公信力。問題是,哪一行的專家,又該審哪一類型的文章?不論今天找評審找的好不好,公布選評審的標準和評審的經歷,對結果會更有說服力。這是想了解我們一直討論的專家與專業的問題,你卻先用語氣酸了我搞不清狀況。唉,要是你了解比我了解,為何不願查證評審個資之後說服我?不要把我懶得查評審個資當成可以酸我來迴避問題點的方式,請就我所提出觀點與問題進行有證據的立論反駁。(舉證是美式論說文的寫法,比較容易說服讀者)否則我會認為你主張專家一定甚麼都懂,這樣就真的不用繼續討論了。

如果我錯了,在下很樂意接受閣下的高見。

朱大也沒要求大家都聽他的,不然這裡老早成了一言堂,反對者的文章可是會被"謝謝收看"。

========================內心OS分隔線=========================

我很討厭跟人筆戰的,只是想問個問題,了解一下專業的領域,討論討論罷了,唉~
2008-03-08 @ 17:54
迴響 from: 專家是王道? [訪問者]
回killbane

什麼是專家?

「專家」建立必須建立在『公信力』,而且沒有『不容置疑』這種事,上面一堆

人回答了,截短一點給你,好歹看一下再辯嘛!


還有,拿醫生出來幹麻?怎麼?嚇唬我啊?我有得醫你有得醫嗎?


這麼多人回你我又跟著回,這樣會不會又被說是「群眾暴力」呀!還好我從小就

是跟著人多那一邊一起圍毆人少那一邊長大的,一點都不會良心不安!!可喜可

賀、可喜可賀!



================================================================
給機車妹:

先說「專家」!我不是否定專家,只是你先想論文爲什麼發表?發表之後會變較

帥嗎?如果沒有,發表心酸的嗎?沒有公開的論文如何取得認同?論文驗證工作

自然是專業人士來搞,這個沒有問題,但是目的是爲了藉由他們的公信力取得更

多人認同,包含非專業人的信賴,這個不反對吧?即使有所謂專家、名人背書,

無法說服你的東西要相信嗎?不是少數人拍胸脯就是得到老佛爺的黃馬褂!

回到這次事件,評審之所以是評審因為他們的專業不是地位,這個要先說清楚!

這次的事件,他們的專業受到挑戰卻退縮、面對質疑卻不敢回應,今天不管他們

的名氣、學問、專業,不敢站出來對自己判斷負責的專家,你說他們該被信服

嗎?連政客被揭疤都懂的反抹黑了,表達自己的立場很難嗎?

再看這個投票,說干涉太沉重!如你所說,參與投票的也許都不是專業人士,因

此,二分法表達看法的投票已足夠,有第三種意見的也發表不投票的原因了,我

不認為有何不妥。這不是表決這個獎該不該拿回來,而是表達「聲音」,沒那麼

複雜。一萬人投票代表有一萬人願意關注這件事情,告訴大家不是把門關起來就

沒事,不是閉上眼睛地球就不會轉,也許聲音小了點、也許不夠客觀、也許我們

不夠專業,但至少有人肯站出來討論(?),那些專家呢?我們做的事不一定改變

什麼,但是什麼都不做就什麼都不會改變。
2008-03-08 @ 19:01
迴響 from: hallow [訪問者]
請把這五位評審的大名表出,讓人永遠懷念,否則以後躲在無名背後的評審,還會是沉默的。
2008-03-08 @ 21:16
迴響 from: 星媽May [訪問者] · http://blog.sina.com.tw/maymiaomiao/
我對這整件事情朱先生表現出的態度致敬
也對這裡各種言論都被允許討論的狀況致敬
2008-03-09 @ 00:03
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
題外:

  俺個人打嘴砲打筆戰凡無在回應前指定特定對象者,
目的只是要讓對方閉嘴而已,無關乎真理不真理。

  其他出現暱稱加冒號者,為觀念溝通,不要緊張不要緊張。

  實在是一種無聊的個人習慣......做點聲明避免擦槍走火。
2008-03-09 @ 00:08
迴響 from: 專家是王道? [訪問者]

本人對評審一點興趣也沒有,只是對於 五個評審=專家>一萬條雜魚 這種跟傳說中獅子的鬃毛一樣謎的坊間傳聞很有意見。

另外就是無差別攻擊:「我無法相信(網路)群眾智慧!」
何不乾脆說:天下智商共一石,老子(娘)獨占八斗,其他人只配翻筋斗!

還有天下裝弱者,居家旅行、搏取同情必備良句:「我已經無法相信人性了!」
這種牽拖給鬼聽的經典名言!

所以,評審的大名不在服務範圍內,請愛用google,謝謝!
2008-03-09 @ 00:58
迴響 from: 丫亮仔 [訪問者]
樓上真的超有創意,害我忍不住浮出水面來鼓掌!

------
立場說明:
一、這個投票雖然因多項變因,影響結果的可信度。但,做為一種參照,我認為有其價值。

二、網路世代來臨,文學獎的舉辦,已無法自外於當代的生活經驗(如網路),是否重新省思文學獎評選運作的方式已是一種迫切的需要?

三、對於評審在這次事件,遭受到的情緒暴力對待,我還是感到不平!同時,對於評審的專業判斷,我仍然贊成。

------
這事件讓我食言n次,只好默默開始瘦身計劃~~~~~Orz
2008-03-09 @ 01:17
迴響 from: 丫亮仔 [訪問者]
我的樓上指的是這篇:2008-03-09 @ 00:58

Orz
2008-03-09 @ 01:18
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
要扯什麼鬼群眾智慧:

關於網路平台:

"奇摩知識+"

  沒錯,當你問法律問題回應給你的人是律師或法律相關工作者,或跑過相關司法程序的民眾,誰來告訴俺他信任什麼.

關於報章雜誌:

  時事評論多的是讀者在反映民意亦有更多相關領域工作者參予投書,對不起,反正也不是當事人,他們也可以被歸類為群眾。

  在網路平台已經出現了神奇的功能走向改變,傳統媒體能做早已超乎個人的能力與認知之上,你還在看什麼。

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

看啊!就算是雜魚,也是可以多閱讀,多交朋友,多充實自己的呦~(耶比~)
2008-03-09 @ 02:22
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
什麼不可行?什麼沒意義?

根本是技術問題。
2008-03-09 @ 02:36
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
  當更多人明白多的是資深教授在維基百科編纂放入了他所有的研究與發表的論文,幾乎是他一生的貢獻...

  群眾智慧是什麼東西,網路是什麼東西,網友是什麼東西,
發表目中無人的言論,恐怕就是個人問題.
2008-03-09 @ 02:57
迴響 from: 鷹少爺 [訪問者]
說到專家~

猛然想起以前非x男女中
兩位知名"兩性專家"的故事

一位以離婚收場
另一位則是被男朋友亂刀...
2008-03-09 @ 03:01
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
俺也在等阿...等著網路上更多能讓俺抄筆記的群眾出現阿...
即便現在已經很多很多了,多到超乎俺的想像與負荷.

2008-03-09 @ 03:33
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
一點牢騷:

  有時因打筆戰的關係,必須一而再再而三的扯一些很基本的觀念,基本到講出去保證給一些前輩笑死,笑你不知道在賣弄什麼,基本到連發完文按下ENTER,自己都心虛花了時間打了廢話,即使還是有人聽不懂,但有什麼辦法呢。

  在寬頻還不普及的那段日子吾人網路還處於撥接狀態,俺還是個年幼無知又好清純的學生。曾在論壇裡用開了一個大哉問,用三個帳號在那裡辯論,玩到查書問人問路改標點符號變更文辭結構,只因爽而想做做實驗,看看遊戲會產生什麼後果,年紀小小太無知太幼稚太不知羞恥,一直到事情過了好一陣子才意識到人性實驗是不道德唯恐天下不亂的行為。

  曾幾何時,天知道…

  網路行銷多的是賣家自導自演……俺發現這樣唬爛也能賺錢。

  中國大陸網軍對台灣部分論壇的滲透就用這套搞內部分裂,北部人南部人本省人外省人的老梗用個不停,跟著起鬨的網民還真不少,原來全民國防的概念還真他媽需要再教育。

  PTT聽說有個野狗大的研究生老是註冊一堆ID搞反串,還蠢到被人家把名子查出來…….學歷念這麼高到底是幹什麼用的?

  無名小站的爭議被林教授拿來實驗罵本與流量的關係……還真是新一代知識分子的典型。

  政客運用媒體的笑點就更多了……

  誰人知俺看見這些劇碼俺有多五味雜陳。

  科科科科科…
2008-03-09 @ 07:17
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
贅字未刪.

反正沒差.
2008-03-09 @ 08:05
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
俺在趕鴨子,趕一整晚順便放空炮.

2008-03-09 @ 08:32
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
  扯這些牢騷幹啥?

  在普遍網路使用者對"嘴砲行為"不屑一顧之時,今天它已經實際應用於政治,軍事,商業行為,與名人的太極推手之上。

  而上段看起來這麼誇張的敘述竟然不是玩笑。

  對一件事情表達自己的關心,如果連自己所相信的事情都不是這麼了解不做功課也能做下任何結論,流於情緒發聲不是確實在浪費自己的時間就是等著被利用。

  任何人也可以滾回自己的部落格大喊專業萬歲,精英無敵,支持誰誰誰的網友盡是白痴,等著認同自己的網友對著自己說"大大好文借轉",一邊發出板主回覆"好阿好阿請便請便",搞不好還會多回給人家一個英雄所見略同的微笑"^ ^"。

  這樣有沒有很智障。
2008-03-09 @ 10:03
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
(全文完)
2008-03-09 @ 10:04
迴響 from: 丫亮仔 [訪問者]
(起立.鼓掌)

*^_^*
2008-03-09 @ 11:10
迴響 from: Balerion [訪問者]
格主


您認為真有可能會有類似的巧合嗎

我不是指陳生件

而是類似情況下,但卻是巧合
2008-03-09 @ 14:24
迴響 from: Tom [訪問者]
回應一下機車妹:

不好意思 太晚回

「你說很多人預設這裡投票的人都盲從 是不對的 但事實時我們根本無從得知」
預設這裡投票的人都盲從是不對的這句 當然絕對正確;
因預設這裡投票的人都盲從是不對的 這句 跟事實能否得知 是兩件獨立事件

「事實時我們根本無從得知」
「也許如你所說大家都不盲從但也同時有可能大家都盲從 but who knows?」
統計學上既定原理knows,由高中或大學機率統計、
初淺的統計概念可得知,將人或某物種之某個特質量化而成的統計數據如iq、身高、體重、eq、化學成績、英文成績、..如下此表,http://www.tf.edu.tw/top/department/Electrical/N_table.htm
眾人IQ,正是個平均值是某個值,標準差是某個值的完美弧線,

而盲從,即對世界上的某人、某媒體、某團體...之「非理性信任而得出的判斷」佔整體判斷意識之比例
與不盲從,即獨立思考,即一個人從他所得之所有非虛假的資訊「由理性邏輯分析而作出的判斷」佔整體判斷意識之比例),

因反應出一個人獨立思考的能力,會是作得好的IQ測驗的主成份和方向之一,
又所有人們IQ為常態分佈是已知事實。
而此次投票樣本充分大(遠比九成五以上有公信力的民調樣本多),
各類因子的樣本之抽樣誤差(從何處連入此blog..等),皆充分微小,
,故可推定此次投票者們「獨立思考能力」之分佈為常態分佈,
(無論點入的投票者盲從哪個選項)
經線性運算後,人們的盲從度也屬常態分佈,
所以不會「都是盲從的」


而「也許如你所說大家都不盲從但也同時有可能大家都盲從 but who knows?」
不只這句本身不正確,也對
「不能預設大家都是盲從的」、「投票意義本身必定存在」兩句
本質上沒反駁力道,除非閱讀者的機率、統計、數學基本概念貧乏

「你說這有很多背後的意義 大家都下了錯誤的假設」

「誰能從簡短的結果中 數字 國家 而能想到他背後的意義 可能揣測得機率會大很多」
完全不需隨心或胡亂揣測,卻可得出推出他背後某種程度的意義,至少「某個意義」
(就像cnn民調新聞報導中可能只有極簡短的數字,不多的樣本,誰能想到它背後的意義。
不過不需揣測,因為推想意義的過程方向是明確的)

接著妳能感覺什麼是「機率」嗎?試圖感覺之並繼續往下讀;

先搜尋一下「機率」、「常態分佈」,作基礎背景知識

而此處盲從的定義:
盲從:在投票前對事件未經思索,但因為對某個人(ㄅ或blogger ㄆ或評審ㄇ或朋友ㄈ或誰..)的想法有著非理性的信任,因而強烈地偏向1或2號
盲從度:一名投票者的整體盲從程度(即獨立思考的反面),
有10000名投票者Vi,i=1~10000,

則每個投票者腦袋裡之整體判斷意識,或多或少,
都有盲從,即對世界上的某人、某媒體、某團體...之「非理性信任」的成分佔整體判斷意識之比例
與不盲從,即獨立思考,即一個人從他所得之所有非虛假的資訊作出理性合邏輯分析而作出判斷之意識,佔整體判斷意識之比例),
分別設為Vim、Vid,
其中i=1~10000,Vim+Vid=1
並設一個人由他的盲從後,受世界上各種原因的影響
對選項1的偏好率為p,選項2的偏好1-p(即此人為選項1或選項2盲從)。
經由獨立思考判斷後,
對選項1的之偏好率為t,選項2的偏好率為1-t

若若說假設專家所說的絕對是對的→
則→人們「以全然的智力、理性、邏輯成分、知識背景」所作出的分析,以「知之為知之,不知為不知,是知也」為基礎,
他的這腦袋的一小部份,也將會100%偏某個選項,
意思可被翻譯成t=1, 1-t=0

因反應出一個人獨立思考的能力,會是作得好的IQ測驗的主成份和方向之一,
又所有人們之IQ成績為常態分佈是事實。
而此次投票遠比九成五以上有公信力的民調樣本多,投票樣本充分大,連入此blog的來源充分多樣,
各類因子的樣本之抽樣誤差皆充分微小,故可推定此次投票者們「獨立思考能力」之分佈為常態分佈
以下設所有投票者的獨立思考能力之分佈情形為常態分佈

則若對1選項的偏好>2選項的偏好
if Vim*p+Vid*t>Vim*(1-p)+Vid*(1-t), 投1(維持原判)
則若對2選項的偏好>1選項的偏好
if Vim*p+Vid*t4z,
落在4個標準差之外的樣本,其機率叫作趨近於0,差不多是0,
一個blog頁面上沒幾個comments就有兩位這樣的樣本,理論上是不可能的

於是反證出(由上到下的運算或許有所不嚴謹之處,但大抵而言可反證)
幾位評審們的確以他們的文學本心,經他們的絕對權威、造詣所評,評出一個捫心自問毋庸置疑的結果,
卻是個萬人投票中得票率絕對落後的那一選項,那麼這幾乎絕對是天方夜譚

「你說這有很多背後的意義 大家都下了錯誤的假設」
「誰能從簡短的結果中 數字 國家 而能想到他背後的意義 可能揣測得機率會大很多」
以微積分的角度,眾人盲從程度之分佈情形,相對於所有分佈情形上的無窮可能,其機率趨近於0;
而上面所說的投票之背後的意義,不需揣測,正寄寓於由上述之分佈為基礎,
及如果評審認定他們的表現是完全出自他們的權威,所推出的上面3個式子。

也許所有人們的z、1-p和推估出的S(Vid))/10000的確未確知,
但式子、函式本身就是明確意義,變數間是以某個明確的軌跡運行的,
(以x*x+y*y=1作譬喻,雖然都不確定上面某幾個點之確定位置何在,但絕對都在一個圓上;
這就是意義了,就是個對觀眾而言可以被充分感知的意義)
評審也大致能有足夠的理解力,明顯感受到其中的蘊意在哪
2008-03-09 @ 16:20
迴響 from: Tom [訪問者]
上面沒貼好,等等~ 朱大看到幫我刪
2008-03-09 @ 16:23
迴響 from: Tom [訪問者]
回應一下機車妹:

不好意思 太晚回

「你說很多人預設這裡投票的人都盲從 是不對的 但事實時我們根本無從得知」
預設這裡投票的人都盲從是不對的這句 當然絕對正確;
因預設這裡投票的人都盲從是不對的 這句 跟事實能否得知 是兩件獨立事件

「事實時我們根本無從得知」
「也許如你所說大家都不盲從但也同時有可能大家都盲從 but who knows?」
統計學上既定原理knows,由高中或大學機率統計、
初淺的統計概念可得知,將人或某物種之某個特質量化而成的統計數據如iq、身高、體重、eq、化學成績、英文成績、..如下此表,http://www.tf.edu.tw/top/department/Electrical/N_table.htm
眾人IQ,正是個平均值是某個值,標準差是某個值的完美弧線,

而盲從,即對世界上的某人、某媒體、某團體...之「非理性信任而得出的判斷」佔整體判斷意識之比例
與不盲從,即獨立思考,即一個人從他所得之所有非虛假的資訊「由理性邏輯分析而作出的判斷」佔整體判斷意識之比例),

因反應出一個人獨立思考的能力,會是作得好的IQ測驗的主成份和方向之一,
又所有人們IQ為常態分佈是已知事實。
而此次投票樣本充分大(遠比九成五以上有公信力的民調樣本多),
各類因子的樣本之抽樣誤差(從何處連入此blog..等),皆充分微小,
,故可推定此次投票者們「獨立思考能力」之分佈為常態分佈,
(無論點入的投票者盲從哪個選項)
經線性運算後,人們的盲從度也屬常態分佈,
所以不會「都是盲從的」


而「也許如你所說大家都不盲從但也同時有可能大家都盲從 but who knows?」
不只這句本身不正確,也對
「不能預設大家都是盲從的」、「投票意義本身必定存在」兩句
本質上沒反駁力道,除非閱讀者的機率、統計、數學基本概念貧乏

「你說這有很多背後的意義 大家都下了錯誤的假設」

「誰能從簡短的結果中 數字 國家 而能想到他背後的意義 可能揣測得機率會大很多」
完全不需隨心或胡亂揣測,卻可得出推出他背後某種程度的意義,至少「某個意義」
(就像cnn民調新聞報導中可能只有極簡短的數字,不多的樣本,誰能想到它背後的意義。
不過不需揣測,因為推想意義的過程方向是明確的)

接著妳能感覺什麼是「機率」嗎?試圖感覺之並繼續往下讀;

先搜尋一下「機率」、「常態分佈」,作基礎背景知識

而此處盲從的定義:
盲從:在投票前對事件未經思索,但因為對某個人(ㄅ或blogger ㄆ或評審ㄇ或朋友ㄈ或誰..)的想法有著非理性的信任,因而強烈地偏向1或2號
盲從度:一名投票者的整體盲從程度(即獨立思考的反面),
有10000名投票者Vi,i=1~10000,

則每個投票者腦袋裡之整體判斷意識,或多或少,
都有盲從,即對世界上的某人、某媒體、某團體...之「非理性信任」的成分佔整體判斷意識之比例
與不盲從,即獨立思考,即一個人從他所得之所有非虛假的資訊作出理性合邏輯分析而作出判斷之意識,佔整體判斷意識之比例),
分別設為Vim、Vid,
其中i=1~10000,Vim+Vid=1
並設一個人由他的盲從後,受世界上各種原因的影響
對選項1的偏好率為p,選項2的偏好1-p(即此人為選項1或選項2盲從)。
經由獨立思考判斷後,
對選項1的之偏好率為t,選項2的偏好率為1-t

若若說假設專家所說的是一定是對的→
則→一個人「以全然的智力、理性、邏輯成分、知識背景」所作出的分析,以「知之為知之,不知為不知,是知也」為基礎,
他的這腦袋的一小部份,將會100%偏某個選項,
意思可被翻譯成t=1, 1-t=0

因反應出一個人獨立思考的能力,會是作得好的IQ測驗的主成份和方向之一,
又所有人們之IQ成績為常態分佈是事實。
而此次投票遠比九成五以上有公信力的民調樣本多,投票樣本充分大,連入此blog的來源充分多樣,
各類因子的樣本之抽樣誤差皆充分微小,故可推定此次投票者們「獨立思考能力」之分佈為常態分佈
以下設所有投票者的獨立思考能力之分佈情形為常態分佈

則若對1選項的偏好>2選項的偏好
if Vim*p+Vid*t>Vim*(1-p)+Vid*(1-t), 投1(維持原判)
則若對2選項的偏好>1選項的偏好
if Vim*p+Vid*t4z,
落在4個標準差之外的樣本,其機率叫作趨近於0,差不多是0,
一個blog頁面上沒幾個comments就有兩位這樣的樣本,理論上是不可能的

於是反證出(由上到下的運算或許有所不嚴謹之處,但大抵而言可反證)
幾位評審們的確以他們的文學本心,經他們的絕對權威、造詣所評,評出一個捫心自問毋庸置疑的結果,
卻是個萬人投票中得票率絕對落後的那一選項,那麼這幾乎絕對是天方夜譚

「你說這有很多背後的意義 大家都下了錯誤的假設」
「誰能從簡短的結果中 數字 國家 而能想到他背後的意義 可能揣測得機率會大很多」
以微積分的角度,眾人盲從程度之分佈情形,相對於所有分佈情形上的無窮可能,其機率趨近於0;
而上面所說的投票之背後的意義,不需揣測,正寄寓於由上述之分佈為基礎,
及如果評審認定他們的表現是完全出自他們的權威,所推出的上面3個式子。

也許所有人們的z、1-p和推估出的S(Vid))/10000的確未確知,
但式子、函式本身就是明確意義,變數間是以某個明確的軌跡運行的,
(以x*x+y*y=1作譬喻,雖然都不確定上面某幾個點之確定位置何在,但絕對都在一個圓上;
這就是意義了,就是個對觀眾而言可以被充分感知的意義)
評審也大致能有足夠的理解力,明顯感受到其中的蘊意在哪
2008-03-09 @ 16:25
迴響 from: Tom [訪問者]

sorry 貼了文文字竟會消失@@ ,朱大上面連續3個Tom都幫我刪 謝 現在我好好貼

---

「你說很多人預設這裡投票的人都盲從 是不對的 但事實時我們根本無從得知」
預設這裡投票的人都盲從是不對的這句 當然絕對正確;
因預設這裡投票的人都盲從是不對的 這句 跟事實能否得知 是兩件獨立事件

「事實時我們根本無從得知」
「也許如你所說大家都不盲從但也同時有可能大家都盲從 but who knows?」
統計學上既定原理knows,由高中或大學機率統計、
初淺的統計概念可得知,將人或某物種之某個特質量化而成的統計數據如iq、身高、體重、eq、化學成績、英文成績、..如下此表,http://www.tf.edu.tw/top/department/Electrical/N_table.htm
眾人IQ,正是個平均值是某個值,標準差是某個值的完美弧線,

而盲從,即對世界上的某人、某媒體、某團體...之「非理性信任而得出的判斷」佔整體判斷意識之比例
與不盲從,即獨立思考,即一個人從他所得之所有非虛假的資訊「由理性邏輯分析而作出的判斷」佔整體判斷意識之比例),

因反應出一個人獨立思考的能力,會是作得好的IQ測驗的主成份和方向之一,
又所有人們IQ為常態分佈是已知事實。
而此次投票樣本充分大(遠比九成五以上有公信力的民調樣本多),
各類因子的樣本之抽樣誤差(從何處連入此blog..等),皆充分微小,
,故可推定此次投票者們「獨立思考能力」之分佈為常態分佈,
(無論點入的投票者盲從哪個選項)
經線性運算後,人們的盲從度也屬常態分佈,
所以不會「都是盲從的」


而「也許如你所說大家都不盲從但也同時有可能大家都盲從 but who knows?」
不只這句本身不正確,也對
「不能預設大家都是盲從的」、「投票意義本身必定存在」兩句
本質上沒反駁力道,除非閱讀者的機率、統計、數學基本概念貧乏

「你說這有很多背後的意義 大家都下了錯誤的假設」

「誰能從簡短的結果中 數字 國家 而能想到他背後的意義 可能揣測得機率會大很多」
完全不需隨心或胡亂揣測,卻可得出推出他背後某種程度的意義,至少「某個意義」
(就像cnn民調新聞報導中可能只有極簡短的數字,不多的樣本,誰能想到它背後的意義。
不過不需揣測,因為推想意義的過程方向是明確的)

接著妳能感覺什麼是「機率」嗎?試圖感覺之並繼續往下讀;

先搜尋一下「機率」、「常態分佈」,作基礎背景知識

而此處盲從的定義:
盲從:在投票前對事件未經思索,但因為對某個人(ㄅ或blogger ㄆ或評審ㄇ或朋友ㄈ或誰..)的想法有著非理性的信任,因而強烈地偏向1或2號
盲從度:一名投票者的整體盲從程度(即獨立思考的反面),
有10000名投票者Vi,i=1~10000,

則每個投票者腦袋裡之整體判斷意識,或多或少,
都有盲從,即對世界上的某人、某媒體、某團體...之「非理性信任」的成分佔整體判斷意識之比例
與不盲從,即獨立思考,即一個人從他所得之所有非虛假的資訊作出理性合邏輯分析而作出判斷之意識,佔整體判斷意識之比例),
分別設為Vim、Vid,
其中i=1~10000,Vim+Vid=1
並設一個人由他的盲從後,受世界上各種原因的影響
對選項1的偏好率為p,選項2的偏好1-p(即此人為選項1或選項2盲從)。
經由獨立思考判斷後,
對選項1的之偏好率為t,選項2的偏好率為1-t

若若說假設專家所說的是一定是對的→
則→一個人「以全然的智力、理性、邏輯成分、知識背景」所作出的分析,以「知之為知之,不知為不知,是知也」為基礎,
他的這腦袋的一小部份,將會100%偏某個選項,
意思可被翻譯成t=1, 1-t=0
2008-03-09 @ 16:28
迴響 from: Tom [訪問者]
因反應出一個人獨立思考的能力,會是作得好的IQ測驗的主成份和方向之一,
又所有人們之IQ成績為常態分佈是事實。
而此次投票遠比九成五以上有公信力的民調樣本多,投票樣本充分大,連入此blog的來源充分多樣,
各類因子的樣本之抽樣誤差皆充分微小,故可推定此次投票者們「獨立思考能力」之分佈為常態分佈
以下設所有投票者的獨立思考能力之分佈情形為常態分佈

則若對1選項的偏好>2選項的偏好
if Vim*p+Vid*t>Vim*(1-p)+Vid*(1-t), 投1(維持原判)
則若對2選項的偏好>1選項的偏好
if Vim*p+Vid*t
2008-03-09 @ 16:29
迴響 from: Tom [訪問者]
--接上面
小於 Vim*(1-p)+Vid*(1-t), 投2(不維持原判)

舉例而言,甲的Vd 0.4,甲的Vm中盲從評審的成分p佔0.1,盲從九把刀的成分佔0.9,則0.4+0.1*0.60.5, 投1(維持原判)
if (1-Vid)*(1-p)+Vid*(1-t)0.5 投1
(1-Vid)*(1-p)(0.5-p)/(1-p) , 投1(維持原判)
if Vid
2008-03-09 @ 16:31
迴響 from: Tom [訪問者]
再經整理得
if Vid大於(0.5-p)/(1-p) , 投1(維持原判)
if Vid小於(0.5-p)/(1-p) , 投2(不維持原判)

此處注意Vid,它的分佈為常態分配,依據此表和票數:
http://www.tf.edu.tw/top/department/Electrical/N_table.htm
畫出Vid的曲線,並設標準差為z,可得(0.5-p)/(1-p)比Vid的平均值高約1.04個標準差:

(S(Vid)/10000)+1.04z=(0.5-p)/(1-p)=1-0.5/(1-p)
(S(Vid)/10000)為10000人們其從他們各自所得之所有非虛假的資訊作出理性合邏輯分析而作出判斷之意識,佔整體判斷意識之比例之平均值

式子再經過整理可得

(S(Vid)/10000)=1-1.04z-0.5/(1-p),和
(1-p)=1/2(1-1.04z-(S(Vid))/10000)

而這裡的z,假設好了近似於智商中的z,根據(google查詢的)比西量表和魏氏量表,約為0.156

則(S(Vid)/10000)=1-1.04*0.156-0.5/(1-p)=0.838-0.5/(1-p)
(1-p)=1/2(1-1.04*0.156-(S(Vid))/10000)=0.5(0.838-(S(Vid))/10000)
2008-03-09 @ 16:35
迴響 from: Tom [訪問者]
而這裡來這裡投的人可能盲從選項1,譬如盲從評審、盲從一開始時的蘋果日報、盲從支持陳的blogger ㄅ、ㄆ、ㄇ們..,
也可能盲從選項2,譬如盲從九把刀、支持刀大的blogger a, b c等...

這裡再假設盲從情形,1-p和p之差距究竟為何;也許票者們對評審們的盲從情形,完全不輸甚至高於九把刀,
但假設上面的1-p的確壓倒性地贏過p,0.8對0.2好了,很壓倒性了吧
則(S(Vid)/10000)=0.838-0.5/(1-p)=0.213,意近於人人蠢蛋

機車妹和白目兄的的獨立思考精神都不錯強,假設你們的Vd都>0.838,
則0.838-0.213=0.625>4z,
落在4個標準差之外的樣本,其機率叫作趨近於0,差不多是0,
一個blog頁面上沒幾個comments就有兩位這樣的樣本,理論上是不可能的

於是反證出(由上到下的運算或許有所不嚴謹之處,但大抵而言可反證)
幾位評審們的確以他們的文學本心,經他們的絕對權威、造詣所評,評出一個捫心自問毋庸置疑的結果,
卻是個萬人投票中得票率絕對落後的那一選項,那麼這幾乎絕對是天方夜譚

「你說這有很多背後的意義 大家都下了錯誤的假設」
「誰能從簡短的結果中 數字 國家 而能想到他背後的意義 可能揣測得機率會大很多」
以微積分的角度,眾人盲從程度之分佈情形,相對於所有分佈情形上的無窮可能,其機率趨近於0;
而上面所說的投票之背後的意義,不需揣測,正寄寓於由上述之分佈為基礎,
及如果評審認定他們的表現是完全出自他們的權威,所推出的上面3個式子。

也許所有人們的z、1-p和推估出的S(Vid))/10000的確未確知,
但式子、函式本身就是明確意義,變數間是以某個明確的軌跡運行的,
(以x*x+y*y=1作譬喻,雖然都不確定上面某幾個點之確定位置何在,但絕對都在一個圓上;
這就是意義了,就是個對觀眾而言可以被充分感知的意義)
評審也大致能有足夠的理解力,明顯感受到其中的蘊意在哪
2008-03-09 @ 16:37
迴響 from: Tom [訪問者]
續應機車妹
「那投完票就該結束了 但就不該需要再進一步想拿這樣結果而去妄想要挑戰專家的看法」
如果他們對統計意義、微積分有一絲感覺,則看到此投票,他們「自認為自身的專業不可被挑戰才是種妄想」,
前面有提到,這件事情「不是一件艱深的專業問題」,不可以無謂地將什麼什麼專業,硬灌在套在隨便某個問題上後,「它就變成一道艱難的專業問題」,就認定這個問題群眾沒有資格回答;
否則全天下幾乎所有的問題,都成了專業問題而人人沒資格回答


就像如一個真的很艱深的文學問題,在這討論,難道眾人們真的會無聊到去胡亂討論發表意見嗎?

就像一個真的很簡單的物理問題,難道一名專家不小心做錯了,而另一名、另一群默默無聞的學生會做且做對,這名專家就能以title壓人,「不認為這位學生的言論可信罷了」嗎?
2008-03-09 @ 17:00
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
Tom:

"此次投票遠比九成五以上有公信力的民調樣本多,投票樣本充分大,連入此blog的來源充分多樣,
各類因子的樣本之抽樣誤差皆充分微小,故可推定此次投票者們「獨立思考能力」之分佈為常態分佈"

  這段假定可能會讓你下面帶起公式全部白寫,此事件與民調不同。

理由:
  知道這件事的與關心這件事是兩碼子事,關心這件事又會上網找資料是另一回事,會上網找新聞之餘進當事人部落格了解狀況則又是另一回事,最後連阿連阿進朱學恆部落格投票更是另一回事,投完票還會來留個言當然也是另一回事。

  光是上面如此粗糙的描述已經出現了太多變數不符合抽樣調查的原理原則,不用講看其結果與回應無法用量化數字對投票成員的年齡層,對事件的了解程度,對文字敏感度等等做直接的解釋,要與嚴謹的智力測驗做對照根本是懶趴比雞腿。

  事實上討論到此又回到原先的自由心證。

另:

  筆戰戰文v1.2版專以引經據典,套用學說公式為主,使用時勞時費神,又只能僅供參考,假設錯誤,全盤皆輸,不建議使用。
2008-03-09 @ 19:14
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
不玩了。

回應玩成這樣基教派還有臉雞雞叫就是智商的問題。
2008-03-09 @ 19:26
迴響 from: 專家是王道? [訪問者]
喔喔喔~魔人出現啦 XD

這個嘛~我倒是認為隨著事件切入面不同,在解讀過程中也會遭受某種程度的暗示植入。如果只得單一方訊息很可能產生判斷偏頗,一開始就存於某一方群體也許會受到集體催眠影響,集體催眠的效應發生後IQ就沒太大意義了~哈哈

不過我認為交叉爭辯產生的衝擊可以改善!(腦子復活^ ^)

朱宅大雖然想出以直接連結polldaddy的方法投票避免沾他的人氣,可惜投票參與層面似乎未能有效擴張(沒辦法,對立方似乎視朱大為邪教教主XD),我認為並非雙方都積極推動投票,一開始贊成維持原判方可能就居下風,故無法認同取樣的客觀性,一面倒的結果也代表不了什麼!

但是,若是一面倒的結果+灌票行為 倒是透露出某種訊息 科科
2008-03-09 @ 20:58
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
想太多了

俺對機車妹根本沒下手.
觀念溝通溝通而已.
2008-03-09 @ 21:18
迴響 from: killbane [訪問者]
當更多人明白多的是資深教授在維基百科編纂放入了他所有的研究與發表的論文,幾乎是他一生的貢獻...

(這表示你還是信任專家,回到老問題,承認吧,你只是不信任文學家而已.文學和其他科學不一樣,每個人都有自我直觀.以致於很多人以為文學就只是這樣而已了.只是說你外行又死不承認而已)

另外,群眾智慧有人說過是用量化的嗎?不要蠢到這樣好不好.人多贊成就比較有智慧.網路上支持不算抄襲的人很少嗎?說得出道理的很少嗎?這些就不算智慧.人多才算智慧?我說不要扯什麼群眾智慧是說不要拿什麼相信群眾智慧這種大道理來轉移焦點.更不要蠢到扯什麼數學機率.

就事論事.陳生我就是不覺得算抄襲.就算這樣算抄襲也是合理的.這就算了,扯到"這是10894個意見,1181篇討論,對抗5個沈默的評審."
更是邏輯不通.這麼多討論是對抗評審?沒有支持的論述,輕易用簡單數據把結果導向階級對抗(承認吧,只是外行的失敗者老想搞階級革命而已.)

唉!我偶爾來亂一下,就會有幾位親衛隊跑出來寫一大串.照朱大論點,我不也是促進網路集體智慧,無上功德一件?
2008-03-10 @ 10:49
迴響 from: 鷹少爺 [訪問者]
killbane大
既要跑到私人blog看那長達1181篇的討論

又要花時間 "寫幾大串來亂一下"
張揚一下
如果別人的王道不是我的王道~
我就打的你承認我的王道是唯一的王道!!

還要忙著羅織"親衛隊"的帽子
努力地扣在別人身上~

我只想說~
您辛苦了!!
2008-03-10 @ 11:42
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
To: 鷹少爺

killbane應該沒去看那1181篇討論, 因為他自己說過:
"誰要浪費生命去看這麼多回應.很多回應是重複或是無義意的(我就是覺得之類,我直覺......)"
他自己倒是沒意會到, 他的發文才是一直重複而且無意義的, 因為都只會罵人外行不尊重專家, 自己卻又講不出讓人信服的論述, 說朱大都是要別人聽他的, 卻又舉不出例證, 反而是旁觀的人都看得出來, 要別人聽話的都是他自己.

而且他如果看過的話, 應該也不會說:
"更是邏輯不通.這麼多討論是對抗評審?沒有支持的論述,輕易用簡單數據把結果導向階級對抗(承認吧,只是外行的失敗者老想搞階級革命而已.)"
因為正反兩方所持的見解, 在那些討論中都有論述, 有看過的人應該了解, 這根本就不是"沒有支持的論述,輕易用簡單數據把結果導向階級對抗", 雙方都提出了自己的看法跟論述, 他不看也就罷了, 自己不做功課卻還一付義正嚴詞的樣子出來罵人, 這根本就 一 點 進 步 也 沒 有 !
2008-03-10 @ 12:25
迴響 from: 鷹少爺 [訪問者]
莎士比亞說:
別和意志堅定的人爭辯 因為他們可以改變事實!
========
我要謝謝killbane大
讓我了解這句話的真諦
2008-03-10 @ 12:34
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
killbane不願意浪費生命去看回應, 所以他自己大概不能體會, 不過願意花點時間看一下大家討論的人, 應該可以發現一個道理, 那就是:

只會一味指責別人, 卻又提不出讓人信服的論述, 並不會讓別人贊同他所指責的對象有多差, 反而能讓大家了解他是個怎樣的人.
2008-03-10 @ 12:47
查k同學上課不認真聽課,開了一千多本參考書目一篇也沒看,報告內容自己招認只是偶爾來亂一下,破壞本校讀書與研究風氣甚鉅,一次記滿三大過,即日起砍掉重練,退學回家吃自己...

欽此!

科科~~
2008-03-10 @ 13:05
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
中文不懂有耳不聞俺不講台語給你聽,
報紙不看常識沒有何人有義務敎育你。

白爛也者,多說無益回文務必惜字如金。

來個 ^+++++++++^ 或科科科即可.

親衛隊?
有在看回應的誰不知俺從第一篇觀念根本與朱老大相逕庭~
2008-03-10 @ 13:31
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
  還在唸書的小朋友如發現有些教授承傳的部份社會經驗是與夜間部的學生取經...
  
  真不知其作何感想阿~
2008-03-10 @ 13:42
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
都-說-你-無-知-嘛----

科科科科科科科。
2008-03-10 @ 13:44
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
多的是踩你的梗用不完!
2008-03-10 @ 13:48
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]

科科科科~~~科科科科~~~~

科科科科~~~科科科科~~~~

科科科科~~~科科科科~~~~

科科科科~~~科科科科~~~~

科科科科~~~科科科科~~~~

2008-03-10 @ 13:49
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
來來來,別說俺對你不好,把你的"精闢意見"複製個10次看會不會屌一點。


------------------------------
(這表示你還是信任專家,回到老問題,承認吧,你只是不信任文學家而已.文學和其他科學不一樣,每個人都有自我直觀.以致於很多人以為文學就只是這樣而已了.只是說你外行又死不承認而已)
另外,群眾智慧有人說過是用量化的嗎?不要蠢到這樣好不好.人多贊成就比較有智慧.網路上支持不算抄襲的人很少嗎?說得出道理的很少嗎?這些就不算智慧.人多才算智慧?我說不要扯什麼群眾智慧是說不要拿什麼相信群眾智慧這種大道理來轉移焦點.更不要蠢到扯什麼數學機率.

就事論事.陳生我就是不覺得算抄襲.就算這樣算抄襲也是合理的.這就算了,扯到"這是10894個意見,1181篇討論,對抗5個沈默的評審."
更是邏輯不通.這麼多討論是對抗評審?沒有支持的論述,輕易用簡單數據把結果導向階級對抗(承認吧,只是外行的失敗者老想搞階級革命而已.)

唉!我偶爾來亂一下,就會有幾位親衛隊跑出來寫一大串.照朱大論點,我不也是促進網路集體智慧,無上功德一件?
------------------------------
(這表示你還是信任專家,回到老問題,承認吧,你只是不信任文學家而已.文學和其他科學不一樣,每個人都有自我直觀.以致於很多人以為文學就只是這樣而已了.只是說你外行又死不承認而已)
另外,群眾智慧有人說過是用量化的嗎?不要蠢到這樣好不好.人多贊成就比較有智慧.網路上支持不算抄襲的人很少嗎?說得出道理的很少嗎?這些就不算智慧.人多才算智慧?我說不要扯什麼群眾智慧是說不要拿什麼相信群眾智慧這種大道理來轉移焦點.更不要蠢到扯什麼數學機率.

就事論事.陳生我就是不覺得算抄襲.就算這樣算抄襲也是合理的.這就算了,扯到"這是10894個意見,1181篇討論,對抗5個沈默的評審."
更是邏輯不通.這麼多討論是對抗評審?沒有支持的論述,輕易用簡單數據把結果導向階級對抗(承認吧,只是外行的失敗者老想搞階級革命而已.)

唉!我偶爾來亂一下,就會有幾位親衛隊跑出來寫一大串.照朱大論點,我不也是促進網路集體智慧,無上功德一件?
------------------------------
(這表示你還是信任專家,回到老問題,承認吧,你只是不信任文學家而已.文學和其他科學不一樣,每個人都有自我直觀.以致於很多人以為文學就只是這樣而已了.只是說你外行又死不承認而已)
另外,群眾智慧有人說過是用量化的嗎?不要蠢到這樣好不好.人多贊成就比較有智慧.網路上支持不算抄襲的人很少嗎?說得出道理的很少嗎?這些就不算智慧.人多才算智慧?我說不要扯什麼群眾智慧是說不要拿什麼相信群眾智慧這種大道理來轉移焦點.更不要蠢到扯什麼數學機率.

就事論事.陳生我就是不覺得算抄襲.就算這樣算抄襲也是合理的.這就算了,扯到"這是10894個意見,1181篇討論,對抗5個沈默的評審."
更是邏輯不通.這麼多討論是對抗評審?沒有支持的論述,輕易用簡單數據把結果導向階級對抗(承認吧,只是外行的失敗者老想搞階級革命而已.)

唉!我偶爾來亂一下,就會有幾位親衛隊跑出來寫一大串.照朱大論點,我不也是促進網路集體智慧,無上功德一件?
------------------------------
(這表示你還是信任專家,回到老問題,承認吧,你只是不信任文學家而已.文學和其他科學不一樣,每個人都有自我直觀.以致於很多人以為文學就只是這樣而已了.只是說你外行又死不承認而已)
另外,群眾智慧有人說過是用量化的嗎?不要蠢到這樣好不好.人多贊成就比較有智慧.網路上支持不算抄襲的人很少嗎?說得出道理的很少嗎?這些就不算智慧.人多才算智慧?我說不要扯什麼群眾智慧是說不要拿什麼相信群眾智慧這種大道理來轉移焦點.更不要蠢到扯什麼數學機率.

就事論事.陳生我就是不覺得算抄襲.就算這樣算抄襲也是合理的.這就算了,扯到"這是10894個意見,1181篇討論,對抗5個沈默的評審."
更是邏輯不通.這麼多討論是對抗評審?沒有支持的論述,輕易用簡單數據把結果導向階級對抗(承認吧,只是外行的失敗者老想搞階級革命而已.)

唉!我偶爾來亂一下,就會有幾位親衛隊跑出來寫一大串.照朱大論點,我不也是促進網路集體智慧,無上功德一件?
------------------------------
(這表示你還是信任專家,回到老問題,承認吧,你只是不信任文學家而已.文學和其他科學不一樣,每個人都有自我直觀.以致於很多人以為文學就只是這樣而已了.只是說你外行又死不承認而已)
另外,群眾智慧有人說過是用量化的嗎?不要蠢到這樣好不好.人多贊成就比較有智慧.網路上支持不算抄襲的人很少嗎?說得出道理的很少嗎?這些就不算智慧.人多才算智慧?我說不要扯什麼群眾智慧是說不要拿什麼相信群眾智慧這種大道理來轉移焦點.更不要蠢到扯什麼數學機率.

就事論事.陳生我就是不覺得算抄襲.就算這樣算抄襲也是合理的.這就算了,扯到"這是10894個意見,1181篇討論,對抗5個沈默的評審."
更是邏輯不通.這麼多討論是對抗評審?沒有支持的論述,輕易用簡單數據把結果導向階級對抗(承認吧,只是外行的失敗者老想搞階級革命而已.)

唉!我偶爾來亂一下,就會有幾位親衛隊跑出來寫一大串.照朱大論點,我不也是促進網路集體智慧,無上功德一件?
------------------------------
(這表示你還是信任專家,回到老問題,承認吧,你只是不信任文學家而已.文學和其他科學不一樣,每個人都有自我直觀.以致於很多人以為文學就只是這樣而已了.只是說你外行又死不承認而已)
另外,群眾智慧有人說過是用量化的嗎?不要蠢到這樣好不好.人多贊成就比較有智慧.網路上支持不算抄襲的人很少嗎?說得出道理的很少嗎?這些就不算智慧.人多才算智慧?我說不要扯什麼群眾智慧是說不要拿什麼相信群眾智慧這種大道理來轉移焦點.更不要蠢到扯什麼數學機率.

就事論事.陳生我就是不覺得算抄襲.就算這樣算抄襲也是合理的.這就算了,扯到"這是10894個意見,1181篇討論,對抗5個沈默的評審."
更是邏輯不通.這麼多討論是對抗評審?沒有支持的論述,輕易用簡單數據把結果導向階級對抗(承認吧,只是外行的失敗者老想搞階級革命而已.)

唉!我偶爾來亂一下,就會有幾位親衛隊跑出來寫一大串.照朱大論點,我不也是促進網路集體智慧,無上功德一件?
------------------------------
(這表示你還是信任專家,回到老問題,承認吧,你只是不信任文學家而已.文學和其他科學不一樣,每個人都有自我直觀.以致於很多人以為文學就只是這樣而已了.只是說你外行又死不承認而已)
另外,群眾智慧有人說過是用量化的嗎?不要蠢到這樣好不好.人多贊成就比較有智慧.網路上支持不算抄襲的人很少嗎?說得出道理的很少嗎?這些就不算智慧.人多才算智慧?我說不要扯什麼群眾智慧是說不要拿什麼相信群眾智慧這種大道理來轉移焦點.更不要蠢到扯什麼數學機率.

就事論事.陳生我就是不覺得算抄襲.就算這樣算抄襲也是合理的.這就算了,扯到"這是10894個意見,1181篇討論,對抗5個沈默的評審."
更是邏輯不通.這麼多討論是對抗評審?沒有支持的論述,輕易用簡單數據把結果導向階級對抗(承認吧,只是外行的失敗者老想搞階級革命而已.)

唉!我偶爾來亂一下,就會有幾位親衛隊跑出來寫一大串.照朱大論點,我不也是促進網路集體智慧,無上功德一件?
------------------------------
(這表示你還是信任專家,回到老問題,承認吧,你只是不信任文學家而已.文學和其他科學不一樣,每個人都有自我直觀.以致於很多人以為文學就只是這樣而已了.只是說你外行又死不承認而已)
另外,群眾智慧有人說過是用量化的嗎?不要蠢到這樣好不好.人多贊成就比較有智慧.網路上支持不算抄襲的人很少嗎?說得出道理的很少嗎?這些就不算智慧.人多才算智慧?我說不要扯什麼群眾智慧是說不要拿什麼相信群眾智慧這種大道理來轉移焦點.更不要蠢到扯什麼數學機率.

就事論事.陳生我就是不覺得算抄襲.就算這樣算抄襲也是合理的.這就算了,扯到"這是10894個意見,1181篇討論,對抗5個沈默的評審."
更是邏輯不通.這麼多討論是對抗評審?沒有支持的論述,輕易用簡單數據把結果導向階級對抗(承認吧,只是外行的失敗者老想搞階級革命而已.)

唉!我偶爾來亂一下,就會有幾位親衛隊跑出來寫一大串.照朱大論點,我不也是促進網路集體智慧,無上功德一件?
------------------------------
(這表示你還是信任專家,回到老問題,承認吧,你只是不信任文學家而已.文學和其他科學不一樣,每個人都有自我直觀.以致於很多人以為文學就只是這樣而已了.只是說你外行又死不承認而已)
另外,群眾智慧有人說過是用量化的嗎?不要蠢到這樣好不好.人多贊成就比較有智慧.網路上支持不算抄襲的人很少嗎?說得出道理的很少嗎?這些就不算智慧.人多才算智慧?我說不要扯什麼群眾智慧是說不要拿什麼相信群眾智慧這種大道理來轉移焦點.更不要蠢到扯什麼數學機率.

就事論事.陳生我就是不覺得算抄襲.就算這樣算抄襲也是合理的.這就算了,扯到"這是10894個意見,1181篇討論,對抗5個沈默的評審."
更是邏輯不通.這麼多討論是對抗評審?沒有支持的論述,輕易用簡單數據把結果導向階級對抗(承認吧,只是外行的失敗者老想搞階級革命而已.)

唉!我偶爾來亂一下,就會有幾位親衛隊跑出來寫一大串.照朱大論點,我不也是促進網路集體智慧,無上功德一件?
------------------------------
(這表示你還是信任專家,回到老問題,承認吧,你只是不信任文學家而已.文學和其他科學不一樣,每個人都有自我直觀.以致於很多人以為文學就只是這樣而已了.只是說你外行又死不承認而已)
另外,群眾智慧有人說過是用量化的嗎?不要蠢到這樣好不好.人多贊成就比較有智慧.網路上支持不算抄襲的人很少嗎?說得出道理的很少嗎?這些就不算智慧.人多才算智慧?我說不要扯什麼群眾智慧是說不要拿什麼相信群眾智慧這種大道理來轉移焦點.更不要蠢到扯什麼數學機率.

就事論事.陳生我就是不覺得算抄襲.就算這樣算抄襲也是合理的.這就算了,扯到"這是10894個意見,1181篇討論,對抗5個沈默的評審."
更是邏輯不通.這麼多討論是對抗評審?沒有支持的論述,輕易用簡單數據把結果導向階級對抗(承認吧,只是外行的失敗者老想搞階級革命而已.)

唉!我偶爾來亂一下,就會有幾位親衛隊跑出來寫一大串.照朱大論點,我不也是促進網路集體智慧,無上功德一件?
------------------------------
2008-03-10 @ 14:02
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
小a放大一百倍,永遠是小寫。
2008-03-10 @ 14:03
迴響 from: 專家是王道? [訪問者]
那個叫什麼keroball的老兄

你還在鬼打牆啊 ="=

孩子的教育果然不能等啊~

(話說回來,這次怎麼這麼久還沒發便當,我還有點餓說~科科)
2008-03-10 @ 17:59
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
便當發完只好發大便,人森真無奈.
2008-03-10 @ 18:05
迴響 from: keroball [訪問者]
這名字不錯 .拿來用用不算抄襲吧.

好吧,不扯專家了.反正公道自在人心,這幾個專家在文壇的地位不是因為他們是聖人,是因為他們寫的文章.這也不是什麼網路公審什麼就可以動搖的.


說穿了,我就是看不起你們這些連這麼簡單的抄襲和模仿都搞不清楚又喜歡好發議論的人.看不起連個十五歲初學者都不能原諒的人(就算他真的犯了錯的話).
文化的累積本來就在模仿改寫中慢慢一代傳一代.
就算抄又如何,如果能有更好作品,讓更多人有感受,這不好嗎?連這一點氣度都沒有,還想說什麼往前走到更好的新世界.放屁.

朱大你說的新世界只有漠漠荒原而已.

2008-03-11 @ 10:44
迴響 from: 機車妹 [訪問者]
To 目白兄
感謝你的手下留情
看看你的見解 可以刺激腦力激盪
多從不同角度看事情 我覺得很不錯
To Tom兄
謝謝你的辛勞回應 還運用很多機率與統計的觀念
我真得很佩服你 但我真的太懶 所以還沒認真看你推導過程
我一定有空時認真查看你的推導的
我連自己寫報告都沒那麼認真 真是佩服你
只是覺得物理數學有必定的答案 對就對 錯就錯 專家也不能顛倒是非
但絕的文學 藝術等等不是 不是有非常客觀一定的答案
我並不了解文學 所以無法評論
To 專家不是王道兄
我很尊重你的想法 但可惜我還是覺得看起來改革的方法有缺失
例如說 改說有一萬個人關心這件事 這個結論有爭議
會比說有一萬個人說這個結果是錯的 因為人數很多 所以等等之類之後的言論
總之覺得大家有不同的想法很不錯
但我覺得一直在這個議題上好像再說下去 有些變成各說各話了
實在不太好玩了 我只是想表達我的聲音
我只是想表達不贊同朱大這樣因果結論的宣言 自始至終都不贊同
我也達到我要的目的 接下來會在鼓勵朱大多貼帥哥圖上努力 XD
2008-03-11 @ 12:03
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
"說穿了,我就是看不起你們這些連這麼簡單的抄襲和模仿都搞不清楚又喜歡好發議論的人.看不起連個十五歲初學者都不能原諒的人(就算他真的犯了錯的話)."
唉..... 我也看不起連最基本的議題在哪都搞不清楚又好發議論的人. 朱大最先開始的本文裡面就說了:
"孩子有狀況,大人該負責!" "陳生出狀況,他背後的大人要負絕大部分的責任!"
不想浪費生命看討論也就罷了, 連本文的論點在說啥也沒搞清楚? 讓一篇大多數人都覺得覺得原創性不足的爭議性文章得到佳作, 那文學獎鼓勵的意義在哪? 鼓勵以後大家都模仿名家作品出來比賽嗎? 這就是你口口聲聲推崇的專家應有的作為嗎? 什麼時候又變成我們的討論是無法原諒陳生了? 原本極力推崇專家的見解不會錯, 說沒抄就是沒抄, 現在又變成說模仿沒關係啦? 雖然改個名字有球的, 也別這麼會轉吧! 不然乾脆改名mixball好了, 會更貼切點.

單細胞生物看出去的世界都是荒漠一片, 因為沒有它可以理解的東西.

突然發現想教導單細胞生物看懂魔戒, 才真的是 浪 費 生 命 啊 !
2008-03-11 @ 12:30
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
  "說穿了?"~~~你的程度說的穿~~~~~~沒人踩你你還真以為自己是some8D阿...
  
  哇哈哈哈哈哈ㄏㄏㄏㄏㄏ哈哈哈哈哈哈哈~~~
2008-03-11 @ 13:23
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
百鍊成鋼臉皮厚厚連羞辱都沒用,原來你也在練功,
小白轉職成老白,一樣白爛~

哇哈哈哈哈哈ㄏㄏㄏㄏㄏㄏ哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈~
2008-03-11 @ 13:35
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
機車妹:

  本來進行任何討論,最重要的就是態度問題,這件事情還能思考的地方,遠比網路上目前妳所見眾多的文章還要多的多。
  學生發言可以只依據老師說,小朋友思考可以盡用我媽媽說,這無可厚非,等到踩出家門校門的那瞬間......才發現凡人能做決定之事,少有絕對定理,趨勢有辦法誰說了算,必無任何希望可言。

  上面舉給你的例子,設計比賽網友人氣票選對得獎人來說也許只是榮譽,實際上對業主的參考意義根本不僅止於此......大多數背後都有半打廣告半做市場調查的意圖,在入口站買廣告要花錢,沒有生意人會做不必要的投資(實驗性倒是會)

  其他五四三再說再說,多的是梗還沒用。

  
2008-03-11 @ 13:51

這位叫做killbane或是keroball的k同學,陳生固然有錯在先,但在我們這裏討論的,是「大人的責任」啊...

你知道嗎?現在只剩下k同學你還在討論陳生了。這麼看來,其實全世界最不原諒陳生的人,是k同學啊。

k同學,如果你真的想關心這件事,至少在發文之前,請先去把下列文讀完:

包括九把刀的原作與部落格討論文、以及陳漢寧的原作與陳漢寧在自己部落格的聲明、朱大的〈孩子有狀況,大人該負責!〉一文全文與隨後的620篇回應、以及朱大的〈對九把刀的回應....〉一文全文與隨後的201篇回應、以及朱大的〈專家不願或不能負責,就由網友來負責吧!〉一文全文與隨後的570篇回應、以及朱大的〈新的世界根本沒有神!〉一文全文與隨後的156篇回應...

因為這是來到這裏發言的人,最少要做到的功課。在此之前,不論正反兩方,至少在事實的認知上,是站在同樣的基礎上的。只有k同學在自說自話...

如果沒有全部瀏覽,不明事情的來龍去脈就輕率發表言論...那麼完全狀況外的言論內容,只會造成對於發言人自己的羞辱,以及浪費大家的時間而已。

k同學要加油啊。目前你的的火力連「弱」都稱不上(還kero球咧...真是污辱k隆星啊)期待你下次的表現...科科~~~
2008-03-11 @ 14:33
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
機車妹:

  忘記補一句,俺自己的梗,自己要破也是反掌折枝,
參考之於你也要學著對自的的論述找其他可能。
2008-03-11 @ 15:14
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
更正:自己
2008-03-11 @ 15:16
迴響 from: Yummi 之@@酸!! [訪問者]
我覺得豬豬一定不會辦苦行提議的投票的啦!
但我選四+五+六 哈哈
亞當先生好厲害,字越來越大越來越大,看起來很有男子漢氣概!!!

都投票完了大家還是很踴躍發言。
可是有些人還是都以假設性預設前提
(我知道宅男們都恐懼真射會怕鬧出人命,嗯嗯,爬文有看到前輩提到過)
我覺得機車妹有些話說得很有道理
(因為我就是很不帥氣的人云亦云又盲從的鄉民 "怨~~")
我支持把"達到實際的改變"當目的,但我想這次大家這麼熱烈發言,有達到啊!
不同立場能夠盡量理性互相尊重的討論,就是很好的示範了。
而且,更重要的,是自我檢視與反省吧!不論年齡職業身分地位。

bosimeiya 說的
「原本應該可以有99%支持的事情,卻因為處理方式導致15%的失分,也許可以讓九把刀思考看看吧!」

我相信九把刀一定已經有想過了,
他在二水當兵的這段役男期間,所有地方人物對他的謙虛態度都是一致好評。

希望拿到文學獎的人長大以後也會蛻變成頂天立地敢爭取也能反省的好男兒!男子漢。

BTW,正妹促進閱讀月真的沒有落實喔,巨乳照那種,照規矩來說不是要等到四月才比較適合出現?
不過豬豬一定不會舔襪吃鞋的啦,
就像大家、諸宅們一直這麼和善的不斷給予豬豬瘦身機會還有鼓勵,
他還是一樣很豪氣的宅在家裡吃包子啊!
同時cosplay一邊穿著緊身褲,一邊啪啦啪啦的跳著舞
一邊很得意的看著這麼多正妹來這裡告白!哼。
2008-03-17 @ 13:53
迴響 from: 幻紫糖果貓 [訪問者]
我肚子好餓喔

不小心看了1個小時的事情始末

朋友的結論是:空空

世界顛倒

語言顛倒

或許這樣說起來的確意義不同

但我看過

其實九叔的語言顛倒也就包含世界亂了

陳漢寧要就寫出自己風格的作品

喜歡九叔就不要用會讓人產生誤會的類似題材

還大剌剌拿給他看

我覺得好像在挑戰

儘管無心,但觀者有意



創作是無限的

期望雙方會因為這次的教訓而真正成長
對與錯在這個時代已經變的模糊
立場不同的兩方,也許還是會不甘心

可是若是能夠一起把這份心情化為創作的助力
繼續為文學領域創造奇蹟,那該多好?
我們只是讀者,不是評論家
所以單純的由書中讀取愛恨交織的情結

想要讓我們知道誰是真正放心和感情,熱愛寫作的靈魂
就用自己的本事加深證明自己的實力吧
絕對不可以因為打擊和挫折就放棄掉

好嗎?好嗎?
身為一個讀者的祈求
2008-05-13 @ 13:34
迴響 from: a6896023 [訪問者]
其實隔了這麼久看到這篇再回覆的我是在挖墳。(不過我現在仍是2008)

我得先說,反正應該也不會有人再對這件事情回應,就容許我放一下屁吧。

我沒有看完所有的回應,就大概抓個脈絡:有個文學獎的佳作,頒給了「疑似抄襲」的作品,被抄襲的作者是九把刀。

於是,路見不平的朱大哥(其實您是圓的扁的藍的綠的我一點概念也無,如果您是位大姐還多見諒),辦了一個網路投票,有超過八成的網友和朱大哥的意見一樣,認為這個佳作不該頒給這「疑似抄襲」的作品。

這個舉動,從根本上來看是對文學的強暴。或許朱大哥認為該鳴放一下,讓評審知所警惕:「喔!原來也是有人在盯著的。」,但潛意識裡,朱大哥已經把文學獎和收視率、閱報率等等劃上同一個指標了。

其實這個獎的初衷,我也不清楚;但無論是純粹的鼓勵,還是牽涉到複雜的商業運作角力在裡面,其用意都是一樣--重賞之下必有勇夫,不管投稿者承不承認,嘴巴上說不稀罕獎品或者獎品獎座之類的勞什子,還有可能會曝光一下下的虛榮。

但文學就是文學,獎是刺激的手段,我們旁觀之人,或許應該要把這兩塊切割來看。

我不說九把刀作品的好壞,那是評論的事;也不說是否「疑似抄襲」應否拿到佳作,那是遊戲規則的事。光就辦網路投票這個行為來說,我瞧不出能達到使評審改評的誘因在,即便是九把刀本人要求評審改頒,甚至是該「疑似抄襲」的作者請求改頒也一樣。

因文學就是文學,獎是刺激的手段。

我只能這麼想:朱大哥是有某種只有您自己知道的思考,才會辦這種投票;否則您要真的看不下去,發一篇議論鞭一下這五位評審也就夠了,又何必找這許多忙碌來操煩呢?

再來說說抄襲這事情。抄襲的文章是不是文章?當然是。「天下文章一大抄,只是抄的高不高」,就算是百分之百的抄,那也是文章;因為評審在評的時候,是先看文章的內容,除非在評之前就已經發現了文章是抄的;而既然作出這一個投票,想必已然有人告知評審:「這篇佳作是抄的。」

剛剛搜尋了一下,在文學獎的首頁上,「顛倒」仍然是位列佳作,顯然評審不認為這篇文是抄的。

那麼,不管評審的公正和專業與否,抄襲是否為真,但畢竟「顛倒」也是篇文章。如果抄襲是實,那該由相關作者去提出訴訟,就走法的途徑,和文學獎無干;若抄襲是虛,朱大哥這麼拉腔結黨,浩浩蕩蕩的召來一堆熱血網友,將他人的心血打入十八層地獄,用一張張的贊成票凌遲了文學,造出了刀山油鍋,結果換來了自己的被矚目,也許朱大哥一開始作這投票時並未想到,但結果就是和新聞媒體一樣的炒作而已。

這樣的文學,不很辛酸?

一點給人小小的幻想,都被無法得到絕對佐證(請舉出能「完全證明」兩篇作品在法律上可稱作「抄襲」的事實)的砲火掩沒了,說穿了,這個投票,根本不是在意是否真為抄襲,而是在意抄襲能不能拿--「佳作」這兩個字而已。

文學就是文學,獎是刺激的手段。作社會觀察的時候,請把「文學」和「獎」分看,用一點嚴謹的精神來討論對錯,我覺得會好一點。


補記:剛剛去看了九把刀網站,舉出兩篇文章的抄襲處,在我看,也不過是概念一樣,離抄襲也太遠了。
2008-09-09 @ 18:34
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
吃東西也是生存的手段,那吃屎和吃飯既然都是手段的一種,吃屎也可以生存,為什麼大家不都去吃屎?

人之異於禽獸者幾希矣,你道德標準這麼低哪還需要多談。

Lucifer
2008-09-09 @ 22:00
迴響 from: a6896023 [訪問者]
看到吃屎這兩個字,害我中飯的胃口瞬間衰弱很多。

說一說心裡話:我倒覺得當人也不見得有高明到哪就是了,尤其在看到文字被這樣歪解,我還滿想替孟子說:「朱恐龍先生(同樣,我一樣不知道您的底細,更或許您就是朱學恆先生,只是換個筆名),你疑似抄襲了喔!」

所以我也要去辦一個假(?)投票。

好吧,作這種不當聯想,對九把刀先生和顛倒的作者也不公平,畢竟九先生多半也不同意自己跟亞聖畫上等號,朱先生也不同意自己和「顛倒」的作者是同一掛的咖。

所以我這樣的連結和對照,這樣的欠缺公允,這樣的暴力,雖然不會有任何孟子的書迷出來聲援我(他也沒賣書,且在日後等到又一長串的討論出來,或者這篇回應被刪除之後,大家更不會記得),也不會有媒體來採訪我,朱先生也用不著關部落格。因為我除了打幾行字,放放一些很臭的最低道德標準之外,頂多就是上網查查孟子的墳墓在哪,然後幻想做一些幫老古董抬棺抗議的壯烈而已。

好吧,我們都同意:「人之異於禽獸者幾希矣,你道德標準這麼低哪還需要多談。」的這句話,與「人之所以異於禽獸者幾希; 庶民去之, 君子存之, 舜明於庶物, 察於人倫, 由仁義行, 非行仁義也.」(見, 離婁篇下第十九)的含意,應該又是不同的意思:一個是片段的意見,一個是整體的論述(我語言表達能力不太好,不是很精準),但是我們都能看出兩件事實。

第一,不談涵義,光就字面而論,這兩句話是相當接近的。
第二,不談字面,光就涵義而論,這兩句話是屬於「概念相同,但發展出的文意不同」。

也就是說,這兩句話可能出自同一個來源,但解釋不一樣。那麼,誰能說誰抄誰?


這是講文學的部份。(發文前補記:我剛剛才把「語言」和「顛倒」都看了。)

其他的部份,比如朱先生說的道德和生存,也許我下午能有機會再繼續說,畢竟一碼歸一碼,因這樣子還不算把話說完整了。

2008-09-10 @ 12:00
迴響 from: a6896023 [訪問者]
我想一口氣說說我的看法,路人當我是自囈就好。

先延續白天的。

從朱先生引的這段:「人之異於禽獸者幾希矣。」和的原文:「人之所以異於禽獸者幾希……」這實際上文意不同的話中,
就可以很清楚的發現,其實在文學創作的河流上,從來沒有一個人能說自己是「原創」,自己寫的小說的梗是最新的,而且身處資訊爆炸時代的我們更沒有資格說自己是「原創」。

朱先生回的這段話,也是有高達八成是和孟子完全相同(甚至我敢說比「顛倒」之於「語言」還高的多),且概念可說是相當類似:

「和禽獸不同的人,幾乎很少了。」
「人和禽獸的差異之處,幾乎很少了。」

以我這又低又臭的道德標準來看,朱先生也不是抄襲;甚至我們可以說,把「和禽獸相同的人」與「不和道德標準這麼低的人多談」掛勾在一起,理論上是跳已經出孟子講的:「要仁義行才是人的根本」。

這比「顛倒」和「語言」二文內所表達出來,深度不足的思考還要更精練些,因為前半段話是科幻小說,後半段就有點抬一下身份的專家味道跑出來了。(因為朱先生道德標準很高,我想。)



回題說一下。

「顛倒」在文章長度上,比起「語言」短的多,故事是說一個什麼都反著來的世界;然而文中有些邏輯上的破綻,且敘述上還有待加強,不過以一個高中生來講,我認為倒也寫的不差了。

而「語言」,就是典型的九把刀小說之一;在構造上,「語言」一文中的世界變化,反不似「顛倒」中的極端。

「語言」這文好幾年前我就在某情色文學網上看到有人轉貼過(t……kiss),今日又再重溫一遍,感想還是一樣:文中充斥著作者利用「我」,來說一些自己的思考。

但道理人人都會說,屁的長篇大論,還不如就和「顛倒」一樣寫少些。反正你的思考還是得建立在「假設……在……中……」的呻吟,然後也說不明白,就是一直問啊問的,怎沒發現真理早被先人搶頭說過了?

所以你說的也不是新梗。

沒辦法說清楚的話,說一百行和說一行的結果是一樣的。

「顛倒」則是完全捨棄了那些思考的部份,相較下反而比較高明,因他留給讀者去「想」。

(你我都不是孟子,也幸好世界上的孟子不太多,否則孟子也不能當孟子了。)

據此,我們可以經由分析看出幾點:

1.「顛倒」和「語言」,在創作動機上,是有相當高的相同之處。

2.「顛倒」的作者(其後為了方便,均簡稱「陳同學」)有看過「語言」一文,然後得到一些想法,便創作了「顛倒」嗎?

我個人認為,這個可能性是有的。

3.「顛倒」表現出來的文意,和「語言」的文意有明顯不同。

上面說過了,「顛倒」不過是"寫了"一個什麼都「反著來」的世界,「語言」則是在"講"邏輯和秩序之於人類的重要。

4.簡言之,「語言」的主旨,可以用「人之異於禽獸者幾希矣?」來瓜代;「顛倒」則是白描出一個虛構世界。

5.一個想說道理卻說不清楚,一個連道理也沒說,那麼基本上就是難兄難弟,所以後退五十步快跑和後退一百步快跑的兩造,也不要說誰抄誰了。

6.承1~5,兩篇文章在主題和結構上沒什麼分別,故只能單就文筆來看。

7.其實大家都可以做文學獎評審。當一個評審分析比較過兩篇文章,又必須得痛苦的分出高低的話,我猜想他們也只能從最基本的文筆上精不精緻來找功夫了。

「語言」一文中的敘述,在運用文字材料,以及修辭、轉化等技巧上,我想連九先生自己也不認為有比「顛倒」好到哪,因最大的致命傷是用接近人與人日常聊天的記敘法來寫小說,這寫給學生看很好,但給有一些年紀的人看了難免會憂心忡忡;當然「顛倒」也高明不到哪裡去,不過至少「顛倒」沒飆三字經。

(如果連文筆這部份都得跳過的話,那就得請出幫改學生作文挑錯字改句的國文老師了。)

8.「顛倒」充其量,只是「語言」的衍生作品,我們應該要將其視為文學上的不同創作,而不是抄襲,就有如

「人之異於禽獸者幾希矣,你道德標準這麼低哪還需要多談。」與
「人之所以異於禽獸者幾希; 庶民去之, 君子存之, 舜明於庶物, 察於人倫, 由仁義行, 非行仁義也.」

的不同。

這是就文學比較後,來看的一些結論。

***********線上敲字的分隔線*****************

若我們已把文學上誰寫的較高或低說完了,我們也該把道德和生存都一併說說。

朱先生在回應中說:「吃東西也是生存的手段,那吃屎和吃飯既然都是手段的一種,吃屎也可以生存,為什麼大家不都去吃屎?」

這句話應該是種轉移式的假設(或者隱喻):「你說獎是刺激文學的手段,首獎和參加獎也一樣是獎,為什麼大家不都拿參加獎?」

或者是:「文學創作也是著作的一種,而抄襲和原創也都是文學,為什麼大家不都抄襲就好?」

這部份,我是這麼想的。

書和文字的出現,是幫助人反思和交流,而不是灌輸或者鬥爭。發明書或文字的人,就如同發明網路,電燈泡,保險套的人一樣,都是為了人的便利。


所以作文學創作的人,如果看偏了從西方導來的著作權概念,把商業上的利益保護,拿來和生存或者道德的概念放在同一個位置就很可怕,因為層次上並不相同。

這三者應該是這樣:
生存-->道德-->著作權(由低到高),先滿足了低的才能再往上一階去談。

而回到朱先生提出的問題來看:

「吃東西也是生存的手段,那吃屎和吃飯既然都是手段的一種,吃屎也可以生存,為什麼大家不都去吃屎?」

(「文學創作也是著作的一種,而抄襲和原創也都是文學,為什麼大家不都抄襲就好?」

而我在昨天的回覆中早說過了,天下文章一大抄,九把刀敢說「語言」沒有來自哪篇小說,漫畫,廣告,電影的一部分,或者全部,然後化為己用嗎?

退一百萬步來說,著作權是不能也不該保護內在的中心思想的,否則人類永遠不會進步,大家照三餐,為了商業利益互相告來告去就好,這就是我最低最臭的道德標準了。

何況「顛倒」也沒談到思想的深度去,但「語言」有;可也是浮面的似是而非。

那麼陳同學在道德上的瑕疵,顯然會九把刀還低一些些。

因為陳同學和他的家人太蠢了。假設陳同學每看一部九把刀小說就寫一篇「類似或擷取」該小說的劇情的創作,那也不能算抄襲。

原因是這部份的認定實在是太抽象。

要如何界定是否為抄襲,實務上爭議太多。但我們可以確定,倘若是到了法庭,換了另外五名作家提出參考意見的話,還是不會認為是抄襲的。

為什麼我敢這麼說?

其實到底「顛倒」到底是有沒有抄襲,在法的層面來說,已經是可以確定沒有的,這個道理說破了,連一塊錢也不值。

如果有,不用等到九先生去找上主辦單位,人家一收到消息,一定會先比對抄襲是否為真;確定有,就把陳同學拉下來便是,我一個文學獎和五個作家為啥要幫陳同學這種咖背書作保?

沒必要嘛!

今天假設是九把刀參加比賽,陳同學懷疑九把刀的「語言」是抄自他的「顛倒」,那我想評審也是會很明白的告訴他:「沒有,兩個是不一樣的故事,這沒有什麼好凹的。」,狠一點的或許會這麼說:「評了佳作,算是很給面子耶,一個故事短卻蒼白,一個長又像流水帳,給佳作只是鼓勵,就算真有誰抄誰,也不過都剛好70分罷了,頂多差在小數點……」


**********線上敲字的分隔線***********************

現代人最大困境,就是容易陷入人云亦云。

關於抄襲,就是說沒有自己的新意。「顛倒」從劇情上論,和「語言」確有不同,九先生該自己跳出來。

以純讀者看,我不認為陳同學只是改個名字,移動幾行文字的順序這麼簡單。事實上,即便他真的邊看「語言」邊寫「顛倒」,他也是寫出了不同的「語言」,和抄襲又不一樣。

事到如今,我們看到了什麼?

九把刀有沒有繼續出書?有,上個月我還買了兩本,「大哥大」和「拼命去死」,被同事借走到現在還沒還我。因為同事說他看了幾頁,就借他兒子;又再被兒子的國中同學借走……

陳同學被朱學恆和九把刀聯手過橋抽板後,拿不到演出費,也可能一輩子不敢再看九把刀小說,更不敢再投稿,或者寫第一人稱小說。

因為他可能會被千千萬萬個BLOG作家告,雖然這種以「我」做主角,實際上指向不特定人的創作,要說誰抄誰太過不易。

反射回來,朱學恆和陳同學在網路上應該是平等的,但陳同學關了在自己的網頁,而朱學恆沒有;陳同學躲起來,我們連不到陳同學自己貼的「顛倒」,但是我們仍連的到朱學恆做的投票,還在(否則我只記得陳冠C,而早忘了電視新聞有沒有報導過這事)這裡,繼續默默的鞭不存在的屍;九把刀的BLOG也沒拿下對陳同學的控訴,和強調的正義與戰鬥。

都還在。我相信道德、生存、著作權,這三個名詞也會繼續存在,且下一個「疑似抄襲九把刀」的小綿羊還會繼續踏入陷阱,然後眾網友亂箭齊發,而忽略本質上九把刀的小說太容易成為被九先生當作攻擊的武器,偽裝成捍衛堅持正義的俠客,實際上不過是寫出一堆紙娃娃,方便作者抄漫畫人物,抄電影橋段,抄別人的名句,抄……

抄抄我咧吵曹操。
2008-09-10 @ 23:06
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
媽的逼你家是用信鴿在送封包喔?

三百萬年前的事情還在講。

你這麼夠種就叫那個姓陳的和文學獎評審出來解釋呀,你跟之前幾百篇留言比起來,都不會覺得自己的抄襲度很高和原創性很低嗎?說了幾百次的話還要重打一次,你打字會有快感喔?

Lucifer

我的意見就在這裡了不會變,陳同學和台北文學獎以後不改名或解釋,這篇文章就一輩子跟著他們。這就是自作自受,怨不得人。
2008-09-10 @ 23:21
迴響 from: a6896023 [訪問者]
一直到今日(2008.9.10),台北文學獎的網站上陳同學仍然是佳作,出版的得獎作品也還在,這是不是算是一種解釋?

這件事情以後一定會再上演,我期待看到下一個九把刀和陳同學又要被消費一次,再假投票一次,網友又被激起了一次,文學又被性侵一次……

只不過應該就不是同一批網友了,因為人是有思考和沈澱的,這就是人為什麼不會吃大便生存而可以接受吃臭豆腐生存。
2008-09-10 @ 23:44
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
挖你這麼厲害,我的網站結果不算結果?

那你說了算你自己開個文學獎好啦。

天氣熱傻子多不就是這樣?那五個文學獎評審都已經過氣不知道幾百萬年了,我部落格一天的流量就超過買他們書的人了,你說該聽誰的?該不會又要聽李家同的吧?

Lucifer
2008-09-10 @ 23:46
迴響 from: a6896023 [訪問者]
好吧,我也讓您消費一下。(雖然之於朱學恆,小小弟我的知名度趨近零)



你這話有點錯誤在。

名氣的大小會等於說的話,做的事情就正確嗎?


第一,朱先生部落格的流量會等於就該聽朱先生的話嗎?
如文革,在中國發動全國性的暴動,那個流量可不是任何一個部落格能比的,但是他們是因為聽信毛澤東,或相信造毛神出來的四人幫嗎?

不是,是因為沒有幫著批鬥的人自己就沒好下場,跟著批鬥他人的人,在批鬥的時候,會有產生連結和安全感的錯覺。

第二,如果今天我去跟郭董跪,然後他看我可憐,賞我好幾億,我再拿這筆錢買關鍵字廣告,還有架一個站,指出在朱學恆網站辦有關「疑似抄襲事件」的任何投票都不具中立的公信力,(因為連到朱學恆網站投票的網友絕大多數聽過九把刀,且其中的一部分可能聽過朱學恆,但在事件被水果報挖出來前,陳XX是什麼咖沒人聽過。)讓網友做這樣的投票,就如同讓一堆泛綠或泛藍來投票決定阿扁該不該上斷頭台一樣的暴躁。


我可沒說我說了算,上帝都不敢這麼說。
2008-09-11 @ 00:16
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
廢話,那文學獎那五個人講的為什麼你就聽?為什麼他們面對幾千個網友質疑不動如山就是對的?

這什麼年代了,文學獎評審還以為自己早幾年寫文章就算是老大了?有你這種盲目支持者正足以證明辦投票的必要性。

孩子,你邏輯這麼差要不要回去小學重新就讀呀!

Lucifer

你說了就錯,當然不會算啦科科科.....
2008-09-11 @ 00:47
迴響 from: Black Sabbath-結晶體 [訪問者]
迴響來自: a6896023 [訪問者]
看到吃屎這兩個字,害我中飯的胃口瞬間衰弱很多。
>>>>>>>>>

中肯,嘴裡有屎味,當然胃口大減。推。
2008-09-11 @ 01:16
迴響 from: a6896023 [訪問者]
我覺得這樣一直轉移話題才是不尊重邏輯的表現。

老實說,那幾個評審的作品我還真的沒看過,而且我的回覆也沒把那幾個評審拉下水。

好,因為這五個人說「顛倒」不是抄襲,所以他們也該是這起事件中的一個角色,所以朱先生抓緊這點奮力去鞭。

但是,我在上面的回覆中,也分開看這兩個作品,最後再做一個比較,當然,我沒有九千多人當後盾,說起來會比較小聲,不過我的重點,就是一個:

「這兩部作品,概念相近,但主題的面向不同;語句相近,但內容的深淺不同。」

只要是有文學創作經驗的人,看完兩部作品後稍加思索,抓一下大綱出來,也能明白這兩個故事是不一樣的。



(如果這樣就算抄襲,那麼一堆畫日本動漫同人的,寫霹靂同人的網友,你們等著被告吧。)

著作權的保護不及於內在的思想,僅及於外在的表達。

比如今年溫世仁武俠小說大獎的最新首獎,叫「浩然劍」,裡頭的人物取名和情節鋪排,有看布袋戲的可能要驚呼「怎麼那麼像」,但「浩然劍」也是原創。

我個人是相當懷疑辦這投票能扭轉什麼,甚或證明什麼的。

又,朱先生辦投票的立場在哪?我看不出來。最該有資格辦投票的,是主辦單位。不是九把刀先生,也不是陳同學,朱學恆和路人眾在這件事情的立場,也和我一樣。

你以為這五個評審真的存心要和九把刀及朱學恆對做?

別看自己太高了,人性才是關鍵,開支票背書要負法律責任的。就算他們比朱先生的文采爛一百倍,但只要打官司的時候很可能會被牽連,那不用等到九先生找上門,他們就會主動要陳同學退出比賽。

因為,就算換五個評審,說法還會是一樣的,只是這五個人現在的讀者比較陌生,所以他們過氣了,說的話就是屁。

要是吳念真或者小野,或者金庸、侯文詠、蔡康永等公開說:「這兩部作品沒有誰抄誰的問題。」,那你這投票還要不要辦?

如果我們迷信比較多演講的,可能比較屌一點,那麼找席慕容、平路、張系國、張大春、楊照等人,另外組一個評審會議,結果這些人也說:「這沒有誰抄誰」,那朱先生這投票還辦不辦?「顛倒」還算不算抄襲?

兩個人說抄襲就對,五個人說不是抄襲就不對?

或者2+幾千名網友說的就對,5+一個主辦單位就不對?

還是以上皆非,只有朱學恆等於上帝,九把刀等於釋迦牟尼?

(幾千個網友不可能都不被操弄嗎?其中不可能沒有只是純支持而未經深思的,還是一個拉一個被招來的嗎?)

(上面提到了文革,就是典型的操弄,過程中群眾的自我反省都被稀釋,甚至禁止了,因為不能有反對派,反對者就該檢討,騎木驢,往死裡整,否則下一個被整的就是你!)


讓我們回到問題原點:「顛倒」到底有沒有抄「語言」?

只要把兩篇故事的大綱分別列出來就知道了,扯上評審只是要強調自己抄四人幫造神的正當性而已。
2008-09-11 @ 01:58
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
我只有一個回應,你是哪位呀?

是閱讀能力有問題嗎?你所提出的每一項論點早就在系列討論裡面全都提出來了,就你還在這邊自以為創新思考的提一些八股概念,文革帶來的真正後遺症就是每個阿貓阿狗都以為可以抄抄過去文章就翻案。

是怎麼樣的井底之蛙才會覺得這麼久之後還在寫「把兩篇故事的大綱分別列出來就知道了」這種入門階級的打字練習是件值得的事情哩?

Lucifer

我很尊重邏輯,但我不尊重你不成形的自以為是,科科科。你要繼續來這邊丟人現眼,我也是可以剔牙縫陪你滴....
2008-09-11 @ 10:14
迴響 from: baabuu-阿宅聚會照片請按右邊網址 [訪問者] · http://www.flickr.com/photos/baabuu/
再戰再戰~~~

台灣親親跟木驢都出現了....好18唷~~~
2008-09-11 @ 10:19
迴響 from: Black Sabbath-結晶體 [訪問者]
最近來鬧場的腦袋都裝差不多的東西
講出差不多的話

就那幾個自認為想當"意見反對黨"對吧
搞笑喔~!!
腦袋沒東西就別往自己臉上貼金了XD

我只能說~來點會的好不好
2008-09-11 @ 10:36
迴響 from: Black Sabbath-結晶體 [訪問者]
張大春以前是我老師啦,
他有明文講過:

"臨摹作品是學習的必經之途,但是習作就不要拿出來發表了,難登大雅之堂"
不然我給你張教授電話,你自己打給他。

我還有朋友給張曼娟指導過,是不是要去問她意見,如此查證才刺激?
2008-09-11 @ 10:43
迴響 from: 我愛張台大 [訪問者]
新警察不僅lag超久,
連朱恐龍是誰都不知道就大放厥詞.....
(更別提不用功先看看前面的討論)
建議大家不要浪費時間在此了~
2008-09-11 @ 10:45
迴響 from: Black Sabbath-結晶體 [訪問者]
最後一句話,
不要再假設了,
拿那些文學大家出來假設,
不會比較厲害。

"試問...??假如...??如果...??"

拿個證據出來先

2008-09-11 @ 10:46
迴響 from: a6896023 [訪問者]
樓上的那幾位,在事情都過了這麼久的今日,還看不清楚啊。

一直當陀螺玩轉轉樂會很有趣嗎?

我本以為這件事情在歷經半年後,再來討論,大家會比較客觀思考。

這兩天,我爬了九把刀的部落格,用GOOGLE把「顛倒」和「語言」都看了,再爬這五位評審的部落格:朱天心/宇文正/蘇偉貞/蔡素芬/季季 ...,最後更爬了這篇文章的相關討論(好,我還是沒看完,因為多到爆,且也如朱先生講的沒有什麼新創見),以及著作權法全文。

我知道這樣的準備功課沒有做到100分,但,及格總該是有的吧?

(補充:我也有買九把刀的書,那能不能多加十分?

要不要我把7-11給的發票拍下來,然後PO在這做證明?

一本是250送手機吊飾,一本是送網遊光碟,好像是賣240,遊戲叫做武什麼傳。大哥大那本是兩個短篇,再附一篇當年投稿倪匡科幻小說獎沒入選的很難看的Orz;另外一本拼命去死是講人在醫學上已經判定死亡,又還能繼續進行人類活動,然後寫到104頁以後就難看到爆,後記比正文還好看感人多……

喔,我不該在這裡說九把刀的小說難看,因為九把刀是神,那請容許我把對這兩本書的感想收回,還我十分謝謝。)

***************中午休息怕給老闆抓到的分隔線*********

以法律論:「顛倒」的確沒有抄襲「語言」,連九把刀自己在部落格也這麼說了,刀迷就不用再鞭陳同學。

http://www.wretch.cc/blog/Giddens/7106710

「今天,就算發生的事件不屬於法律上定義的抄襲(非常嚴苛),最低程度也是不道德的改寫、不具原創性的改寫、過度模仿原創故事架構的衍生再創作。是的,罪名可以隨你高興、斤斤計較的定義而改變,但事件的本質呢?」

也就是九先生大概知道,中華民國著作權法裡面沒有「抄襲」二字,而僅有對抄襲的概念。

所以九先生強調了,是「改寫」,以及「不道德的改寫、不具原創性的改寫、過度模仿原創故事架構的衍生再創作」。

換言之,在九先生的眼裡,陳同學是有罪的,但是在法律上不能證明他有罪。

而這麼推論後可以得到:九先生是認為,即使陳同學法律上是無罪的,但道德上則應有相當程度應該對九先生負責,不管是道歉或者退回獎勵還是自廢手腳都可以(當然「自廢手腳」是我自己加上,九先生沒這麼說,不過實際上陳同學我想也不敢再創作了)。

那麼,朱先生的投票,意義何在呢?

「1181篇討論和眾多的其他部落格作者的文章中,我看到結構主義,看到文本分析,我看到網路調查的抽絲剝繭,看到對正義的思考、對民主和民粹的挑戰。如果看到這樣百花齊放的討論,你還能認為群眾是無知的,這是群眾暴力,那你的看法,也不過就反映了你對自己能力的想法而已。

但即使你認為身為群眾一份子的你是無知的,是沒有智慧的,但我還是相信你跟這些專家有同樣的資格對這件事情做出評論,表達意見,決定對錯。

如果這樣,你還是決定要讓專家宰制你的看法,讓沈默的5個專家勝過10894個意見,1181篇討論和眾多的部落格文章......那是你家的事。

但那不是我要的世界,也不是我想要生活的未來。

我要往前走,你可以選擇留下來。」

這段話其實相當諷刺。反過來說,10894中的9282人次,就可以要求改變評審結果,可以嗎?

這樣有比較正義嗎,9282人次+朱先生九先生的道德有高出蘋果日報嗎?

如果有,那法官都要失業,金曲獎就是歌迷動員大會,霹靂或動漫迷請準備好遺書交代破產後身後事要怎麼辦,不然請多包一些遊覽車到台北抗議,也許朱先生會請9282的大家中午吃便當。

原來,九把刀都不會做錯,朱學恆=完美,過氣的作家當評審,公信力就是屁,除非九把刀或朱學恆當評審,意見才是意見,拉了9282人次來當墊背會恆等於絕對正確,自己躲在9282人次下就可以大聲說:「評審,你錯了!」

「季季,你說九把刀錯,那你就是錯了!」

「朱天心,你說九把刀錯,那你就是錯了!」

那其他報紙沒寫到的評審,她們的部落格怎麼不去飆一下?(我一直很想問這問題)

***************中午休息怕給老闆抓到的分隔線*********

我將心比心,如果我是九先生,我發現我的作品被抄,我會不會還說:「你做的事情自己知道。」

沒有啦,我沒那麼高尚,我不是聖鬥士,整天燃燒小宇宙逛大街喔。

換成每個人都一樣。當陳同學拿一篇文來問你:「這篇文有沒有抄你的作品?」的時候,你一定會很用力,很注意,很仔細的看,然後發現一件事情:

「他自己覺得有可能會被說是抄我的,所以跑來問我。」

所以,在我確定陳同學是抄我的文後,我就會毫不客氣的要他不准發表,甚至不可以參賽,而不是說:「貼到網路上給大家看,自有公論」的這種圈套,這未免也太狡獪。

按照九先生的觀點來言,你九把刀就是原創,若你說不可以他還繼續,那陳同學今天這樣的下場就是活該;可你偏偏在第一時間不去阻止,事後又用一大堆藉口合理化你之後遲遲不進行的法律行動(最好出版社和經紀公司都是慈濟分會),訴說自己的多麼委屈,無奈,憤怒,不滿,隱藏自己其實擁有可動員的讀者比這五位評審的總和還多的事實。

今天朱先生在這件事情的身份呢?

充其量,是一個比較有名的局外人,所以,朱先生來領頭挑戰這些評審,大家會覺得「雖千萬人吾往矣」,就能實踐或支持九先生心中的道德、正義、理想……

但可怕的結果是,在九先生指責蘋果日報的同時,卻也不自覺的利用媒體;朱先生則是打著「天下不平之事」我都要管管的大旗,一腳踹爛了主辦單位的台子。

兩人聯合無視了最低的道德標準,還有什麼資格再來去對別人說:「這已經不只是法律層面的問題,而是疑似抄襲,或者改寫模仿的作品能不能算佳作的問題……」

這次事件裡面的評審,某些程度上還比陳同學更無辜,他們只是盡責的做出評斷。

對他們而言,你九把刀和陳同學都是一樣的,沒有分別,只是你九先生年紀大了些,聰明了些,知道媒體運作和公關經營是維持商品銷售的法門之一。

差別只是這樣。
2008-09-11 @ 13:24
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
我覺得你自己看了幾篇文章就寫了好幾篇毫無新意的自以為分析,這個功課準備大概只有兩分,距離你自以為的及格六十分大概差個二十九倍。

半年前的網友寫的東西比你精彩多啦,半年後還浪費我們時間看這種老調重談,你都不會覺得尷尬喔?

連大眾意志是什麼東西都不懂,你要不要先反省自己過度膨脹的心態和自以為做功課的幻覺是怎麼來的?

Lucifer
2008-09-11 @ 13:43
迴響 from: a6896023 [訪問者]
朱先生還是沒回答問題,事實就是在那。

http://www.hi-on.org.tw/bulletins.jsp?b_ID=50386
『對於「民意調查」在民主體制中所扮演的角色,一般有幾種看法。第一種是樂觀的,視為「大眾意志的展現」,尤其是透過科學的抽樣程序與統計推論,民調被認為是一種無偏差的,並且能夠“反映”大眾態度的重要途徑。

(中略)

  另一種較悲觀的看法,則視「民意調查」為一種「被動的政治參與」,是有偏差的,不但傾向於放大某一群體的意見,而將不願意表態的群體以「沒意見」、「拒訪」之名而加以忽略;更常常是易於被影響的,尤其當民眾被動地反應題目的刺激時,題目的組合與順序常常決定了民意的反應,換句話說:民調工具常會凸顯某面向的民意,甚至決定民意的趨勢。在這樣的選擇性偏差之下,民意調查呈現的並非是完整的大眾意志,而是有選擇性的民意。』



http://www.scu.edu.tw/politics/member/a-hon/ESSAY83.htm
『儘管直接民主形式以及新興電子媒體無遠弗屆的影響力,提供了人民直接參與的管道,然而直接公民投票式的民主,並不能解決代議制度的流弊,反而因剝奪了公民審議的機會,使得決策品質受到影響(Press,1994:20)。因為在這些民主形式之下,政策問題都被過度簡化,人民只能在設定的選項中作選擇,我們看到的是一個個孤立原子式的個人,基於較少互動以及反思的情形下,對議題做出反應。各項決策結果的正當性,也依據選民數量的多寡來決定,而無視於對決策品質的要求,造成我們處理複雜公共問題的能力日益降低,同時也使得政治人物巧妙地迴避對此爭議性議題所應擔負的政治責任(Press,1994:21,Fishkin,1995a:104)。

(中略)

另一方面,儘管電子民主提供了人民參與政治的許多途徑,然而電子民主也呈現出許多缺點:London(1995)即認為電子民主所呈現的只是意見的聚集(aggregate),而非透過討論而形成的公共意見;同時這種意見呈現的方式,容易流於獨白式的意見陳述,而缺少進一步討論的可能性。因此科技本身所帶來的速度及效率,不一定使人民對此議題的理解及審議有幫助,它可能造就了更多表達意見的機會,但不一定能使人民對此議題有更深入的瞭解。』


大眾意志的展現,在現代可說是得到相當大的伸展,但是「理性的無知」卻常散見在網路上的諸多議題。

透過交叉反覆的討論才是接近真相的作為,設定二分法限制的題目不會比較接近,而是會更遠離真相;況且題目也直接否定了評審的功能,越俎代庖的宰制了一切。

若說在辦投票之前,已然有了相當多的討論,那麼本次投票的題目在基礎上是不牢固的,無法反應所謂的「大眾意志」,而是「特定意志」的表態--贊成的還是會贊成,反對的還是會反對;且這樣投票的背後目的就好似木偶師傅的操線,形成逼迫投票者選邊站的無聲回答,實質上贊成或反對的都是臨時演員,看銅板翻哪面就跳哪面。

結果是:

第一、否定專家:這五位評審專或不專,本不該與這題目搭上線;可偏偏投票的題目又是要跳過專家的能力,來做一種對專家意見的反撲。於是出現了沒受過專業訓練的觀眾,會比受過專業訓練的選手還擅長打棒球的怪現象,因為這些選手打的姿勢和成績不符合觀眾要的結果。

所以我們也可以把投票把法務部和檢察制度廢了,因為洗錢案到現在沒有任何一個人收押。

第二、公正性的不足:滿足了「超過八成的聲音」就代表正確,是很可怕的。如果要以這麼單純的切西瓜來強調正義和公理,得先確定這9282人次中不論專業上或立場上比那五位評審還冷靜客觀,否則也只能視為一種對特定人的支持,不管是九先生還是朱先生。

第三、不確定的真相被隱蔽:冤有頭債有主,應該在確認「顛倒」有牢不可破,不能反駁,抄襲「語言」的證據後,再來辦這個投票。比如前陣子吳淡如的事件就是一例,那麼我們就可以辦一個投票,看看是應該要求吳淡如的將文章下架,還是繼續公開。

但沒有人這樣做,因為吳淡如不是九把刀。

第四、受益人是誰?

1.陳同學在網路上陣亡。或許他換個筆名重生也不一定,但沒有一個路人知道,且也和這個投票無關,或者被切割掉。而且他選擇的方式是沉默,所以陳同學被消化掉了,一點好處也沒拿到。

2.五位評審,有沒有拿到報酬我不知道,不過因為堅持不改判,所以可能失去了未來可能的顧客群(讀者),故就算有拿到報酬,顯然是弊大於利,因為這個投票的槍頭是對準文學獎和評審群。

3.九先生和朱先生。在進行一連串的公開和非公開的行動,最後成功的轉移了九先生一開始的訴求:「顛倒」抄襲了「語言」。

不管九先生的主張是否真的站得住腳(正確或誤判),投票的題目已經是詢問這個佳作該不該給「顛倒」;由於題目是朱先生設定的,故朱先生不能置身事外。

而所強調的「追求公理正義」、「道德標準」,竟也是一種反諷了。



大眾意志的展現,不該是由單一的個體來發動,因為會失去準心。
2008-09-11 @ 15:38
迴響 from: Black Sabbath-結晶體 [訪問者]
這兩天,我爬了九把刀的部落格,用GOOGLE把「顛倒」和「語言」都看了,再爬這五位評審的部落格:朱天心/宇文正/蘇偉貞/蔡素芬/季季 ...,最後更爬了這篇文章的相關討論(好,我還是沒看完,因為多到爆,且也如朱先生講的沒有什麼新創見),以及著作權法全文。
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
你看了堆資料也沒用。
略懂知識不等於格調高。

台灣的著作權法是不夠健全的,
所以你要繼續依循?

炒冷飯,誰會因此而得到教訓嗎?
還是純粹你自以為老師?

我們都不太想理你了。看不出來嗎?
好無聊。尷尬極了。

2008-09-12 @ 23:30
迴響 from: a6896023 [訪問者]
>>你看了堆資料也沒用。
>>略懂知識不等於格調高。
我可沒說我懂什麼知識了,討論不是這樣子一直轉移話題。

>>台灣的著作權法是不夠健全的,
>>所以你要繼續依循?
那請您給「健全」下定義,況且朱先生和九先生說這是道德、公理、正義(再加上「道路」就等於基督了)問題,這樣說來您可就和我站在同一邊了,呵呵。

>>炒冷飯,誰會因此而得到教訓嗎?
>>還是純粹你自以為老師?

不用期待誰得到教訓,也不用訓誰,對這件事情的處理是這樣嗎?可以這樣嗎?應該這樣嗎?

朱先生都不會錯嗎?陳同學不會錯嗎?九把刀不會錯嗎?五位評審不錯嗎?

那為什麼我們只可以譴責五位評審和陳同學,而不用去反思朱先生和九先生可以曾參殺人,可以三人成虎,可以指鹿為馬嗎?

再換一個角度,如果今天是陳同學說「語言」抄「顛倒」,九把刀雖然說他早在十年前發表,而陳同學說他早在幼稚園中班就寫出顛倒呢?

或者,顛倒的作者叫朱學恆,語言的作者叫九把刀,那你說有沒有抄襲?

朱先生在樓上說過,和禽獸相異的人不多了。沒錯,我很贊同,專家是訓練有素的狗,我在文學上則是連訓練有素都算不上的狗,正如我不敢說對奇幻文學和對科學的知識與熱愛有及於朱先生的百分之一;對於作職業作家的堅持,對自身權益的維護勇氣,以及對商業經營的思考深度有及於九先生的萬分之一。

但是,不等於朱先生就不可能會判斷錯誤,不等於九先生的主張不會偏差,不等於可以光檢討陳同學和評審,而不用檢視這兩位先生。

我還是會說,這沒有誰抄誰的問題,因為兩個人都不是原創,避免你說沒有新意就不說了。

重點在於,我們若不以法律觀點,純粹用高道德標準檢視九把刀的所有文學作品,會發現有太多人的影子,那我們要不要也說九把刀抄襲?

同樣的,陳同學就是一個小九把刀,只是在他的年紀當然是挑他喜歡
的作家,他會去挑高行健還是柏楊來改寫嗎?

抄襲作品在台北文學獎的遊戲規則也是禁止的,五位評審在科學或者奇幻文學的涉獵廣度全部加起來可能也還不及朱先生;領過的稿酬和版稅更比不上朱先生+九先生,但這五獅合體的眼睛,在文學領域上評過的文字也不會少於朱+九先生的總和。

如果這些最基本的我們都不能認同,我們不能尊重各個領域的差別,然或我們只要聽到朱先生和九先生說「陳同學殺了人」、「陳同學是老虎」、「陳同學是馬不是鹿」,拿出的證據也不能讓人信服,便又要跟隨著吶喊,搖著小紅本高叫:「陳同學是黑五類!」、「朱主席萬歲!」「九把刀同志萬壽無疆!」、「五個評審是新中國的罪人!」……

不要這樣,文學不是這樣糟蹋的。有沒有抄襲細看就知道,連最低的法律底線都可以說不是了,更遑論談到更高的道德層面?(而且九先生如果也站在同樣的高度比的話,他的作品抄更大)

我不知道為什麼只有陳同學和五個評審要選擇沉默,然後九先生和朱先生可以充分享受無敵星星,而不需省思;更在熱度過後,就像立委爆錯料一樣,連道歉都不用,還能笑傲媒體。

李家同說,我們的社會太躁動,的確是。


>>我們都不太想理你了。看不出來嗎?
>>好無聊。尷尬極了。

因為新聞不炒了,所以路人都健忘了,忘了陳同學不完美,錯了;九先生和朱先生也不完美,也錯了。

我?

我只是未經訓練的狗。

一開始都說我在自囈,當我亂咬不就好了?朱先生要求文學獎和評審、陳小弟修正,怎麼不想自己有沒有可能是一時熱血衝腦?

所以,事件都過半年了,不正是最適合發言嗎?
2008-09-13 @ 06:39
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
事隔半年反省還是只有這種程度,你用未受訓練的狗描述自己是太過抬舉自己了。

但你要持續不知所云讓大家看笑話,我們很樂得看表演呀。

Lucifer

狗和馬大約等於五歲人類的智商耶。
2008-09-13 @ 08:29
迴響 from: a6896023 [訪問者]
那請朱先生要舉出我的不知所云在哪,這就是朱先生說的要有邏輯。

嘲諷的回答等於沒有回答,只會突顯自己的黑暗。


避免又有人說沒有新見,讓我們這樣看好了。

前些天有立委說,因為中華民國憲法裡面規定中華民國的領土及於中國大陸,所以熊貓是我們的,故沒有存在送或不送,國或不國的關係。

又,某網友說,颱風天放颱風假竟然不算薪水,政府是幹什麼吃的?

準此而論,只要我們能找到某件事物存在於我們想要之處的證明,那麼那個就是我的,此山是我開,此路是我栽,要想打此過,留下買路財。

只要我能找到支持我的論點,哪怕是偏頗,被塑造的,我們也可以說就是對的?

這是知識份子該有的模樣?

這是我們讀書寫字受教育多年,所遺留給下一代的堅持和風範?

我不相信。

今天朱先生發動投票,為什麼五位評審就非得聽朱先生(以及9282人次)的話?這五個人和主辦單位不夠客觀的話,她們也可以拉文學界的一起來背書,到時候是誰會毀掉?

不是陳同學,而是朱先生和九先生,而9282人次的匿名不會受損,因為不用負責。

以最低的法律標準來看是對九先生的寬容和容忍,因為對於這五個人來講,陳同學和九把刀並無分別,和朱先生以及9282人次一樣是平等的。

所以他們沉默。

追回開頭去看,只要陳同學沒有寄文去給九先生看,九先生哪會在意陳同學,因為他連咖都排不上;即便是文學獎給陳同學首獎,九先生鳥都不會鳥,因為孔方兄比文學獎更重要。

這是陳同學的錯。

多少人寫詩學徐志摩,學余光中,寫武俠學金庸,學古龍,甚至連人物和佳句都引用了,但我們不會因為這樣就說這些人抄襲,且每天都在發生,也有人以此出版。

我們不要用轉移的回答來模糊了本質:

第一,到底有沒有抄襲?

第二,對抄襲的認定,如果不相信法官,不相信作家,那我們要相信誰?

第三,網路投票行為不論能否改變結果,造成的傷害在於,文學創作的大倒流。以後我們創作時,必須先用google確認科科科有無被人申請專利,阿飄出現在哪本小說,宅男是誰的創意,恐龍二字會不會構成對著作權的侵害,這些都在很多人的blog公開文章中出現過。

九把刀的部落格中大量貼出海賊王的圖,要不要說他侵權?

不可以,因為他文章的主題和海賊王沒有直接相關。
2008-09-13 @ 11:11
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
有個小學生自己寫了一篇作文說自己長大要當總統,然後說「我覺得這個超有新意的,你說我沒有新意要指出來給我看。」旁邊很多大人看了笑呵呵。

問題就是沒有新意沒有邏輯,你自己看不懂,聽也聽不懂,我們怎麼救你呢?又不是拿你錢的老師,所以就說只能看著你像傻子一樣跳跳跳,自己以為很有新意和邏輯,但我們只有笑呵呵呀!

Lucifer

連自己什麼地方犯錯都看不懂,只會纏著大人,這樣都不會覺得不好意思喔?

好吧看你可憐,勉強給你一點指教。

抄襲的判斷還相信法官跟作家哩。我五百萬年前就說過了,文學不是科學。文學沒有標準答案,科學的定理有標準答案,所以有專家。但文學有個屁專家,你連這個都不懂,打字多以為自己就很厲害了?

是不是早上沒吃飽打字宣洩怒氣?

還文學大倒流哩,你都不覺得你打這些好笑的內容會智商大倒流?
2008-09-13 @ 11:19
迴響 from: a6896023 [訪問者]
所以朱先生就否定了專家?

我們不管這些專家到底專或不專,或者科學的定理有標準答案這種學科學的會噴飯的話。數字是不是科學?1+1等不等於2?

世界上的所有學問都沒有標準答案,就因為沒有標準答案人類才能進步;文學是思想的表達,沒有文學的發端,其他學問不能繼續研究分析探討。

文學當然不是科學,文學是科學的母親。

沒有文字你的思考就永遠是思考,不會到最後化成科學。

我們說有沒有抄襲都不是標準答案,但如果沒有一個規則出來,人們無從確認我們和社會的通認到底落差在哪?

法官看一個人有沒有精神疾病以論罪,也是得找醫生來判定,如果不找醫生,全都給旁聽的人來決定,那我們改成人治國家好了。

文學上看有沒有抄襲,不找寫文章的人,去找讀者來判定會比較趨近真相?
2008-09-13 @ 11:59
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
文學哪有什麼專家,你早餐沒吃飽吧?

Lucifer

沒有專家的領域你還要堅持什麼作家讀者法官之間的地位高低,可能你晚餐也不準備吃吧?

看起來你也沒聽過什麼叫做大陪審團吧。

就說小學生只會纏著大人很丟臉呀,你要不要多讀點書啦,真是的。
2008-09-13 @ 12:32
迴響 from: a6896023 [訪問者]
朱大人耍賴式的回答會有比較會?我5歲的智商就可以辦道。

讓我抄襲一下朱大人的二分法吧。

我上面已經一再強調,不管專或不專,這個投票公正性和功能是禁不起檢驗的。

即,我的回覆中,和專家不專家沒有絕對關聯。

提出大陪審團又是轉移話題,不管台灣有沒有陪審團制度的設計,你的反駁也和我的回應無關,這是朱大人說的邏輯?

旁聽者會等於大陪審團?請不要誤導路人。



好,我再把網路投票和有無抄襲切開看。

抄襲就是抄襲,改寫是改寫,我們得先對抄襲和改寫釐清出定義,因為抄襲不等於改寫。這部分有太多討論就跳過去吧,我們就結果看,台北文學獎的規則已經闡明不能用抄襲作品來參賽,而也已經知道有另一部作品的存在,但仍然給予佳作,這是為什麼?


1--這五個評審和主辦單位連臉皮都不要了,也拋棄了自己多年來的文學素養,堅持給顛倒佳作(我就是要給他佳作啊,你咬我?)

2--顛倒沒有抄襲語言。是因為如果誰說某作品有大約多少百分比用字遣詞和另作品相類似(不是完全一樣),且該作者其他沒有參賽的作品也有同樣情形,那麼我們就改判;所以落選的參賽者只要能舉出這樣的例子,大家都來找評審吵糖吃,實在是太麻煩了。

3--你們兩個人想聯合網友來撼動我們五個在文學上面的名聲(當然對於大多數人也沒聽過,包括我),想侵犯神(神個X)的領域,所以對這種陰謀要抵抗到底?

4--九先生朱先生別鬧了,你們又不是高中生,答案自在你們心中,但是老虎都騎上去了,總得找梯子下吧!

我們的書也不暢銷,上的通告也少,跟你們沒什麼利益衝突,那麼我們悶聲,你們大發財吧。
2008-09-13 @ 13:53
迴響 from: palm [訪問者] · http://www.wretch.cc/blog/ruaypapa
TO:a6896023
A狗先生(或是小姐),進入您的部落格,HTTP://BLOG.UDN.COM/A6896023,參觀了一下,我想,我大概知道您為何要為陳小弟弟發聲,為何這麼在意文章是否為「抄襲」或「類似或擷取」了。
拜讀了您所「撰寫」的極短篇,還真是「像極了」20幾年前聯合報所編輯的幾本極短篇,幾乎篇篇使用的都是老梗,看了起頭,大概就知道結局了。畢竟,受誰影響,就有誰的影子,只是把場景從現代換成武俠,倒也還蠻合小弟的胃口,還不膩!!!還請多多改寫,以饗眾多讀者,我想,大夥對新瓶裝老酒的接受度,應該還是滿高的!!!!!!!!
只是,對於朱學恒及本版宅友們的迴響,小弟也有存檔的習慣,但您以「避免被刪除,暫存」的字眼存檔,就代表您真的太不了解朱學恒了!!!他絕不刪文,對於網友的迴響也決不剔除;網友的迴響與挑釁,他也只是隨心情的好惡決定是否回文,而回文常機車的讓當事人恨的牙癢癢的,其他宅友看的科科笑。建議您爾後踢人館或劈人招牌時,學學諸葛先生吧!孔明對於吳國眾將領的身家背景亦下過一番苦功,否則也不敢隻身舌戰群雄吧,反而留下沽名釣譽的臭名(我真的不是在諷刺您)!!!
建議您,在「避免被刪除,暫存」的時候,既然連宅友們坦然所留的網址都被您「避免被刪除,暫存」在您的部落格中供您的支持者閱覽,為何您有勇氣來此挑戰,卻不敢留下您的網址呢??我想,在這裡除了佔據朱學恒打電動時間時,他會像臥槽泥馬一樣嘶嘶亂叫外,其他宅友倒還溫柔綽約吹彈可破的,更~~~越寫越噁爛,寫不下去了………





2008-09-14 @ 01:19
迴響 from: a6896023 [訪問者]
致樓上的palm網友:

我想,一件一件事情要分開看。

所以,我沒有留下我的部落格網址。我不願意喜好朱先生的朋友點到我的部落格去,那沒有必要,因為我也是在這裡回應,何必呢?

我所要強調的,就如同朱先生說的:「大人要負責。」文學也如同朱先生說的,哪裡有專家?

那要是朱先生和九先生和9282人次看起來人數比較多,就可以左右一個競賽,且主辦單位真的改判,屆時造成的傷害可不僅僅是只有現在陳同學永遠被打上「抄襲九把刀」的標籤麼簡單,更可能是數百位參賽者對文學獎公信力的的崩盤,甚至講白了,連給九把刀的餘地都沒有了。

(五個評審讓抄襲自九把刀作品,且其中有人說「寫的比九把刀好」的都落選,那九把刀的作品又如何?)

我們不能相信專家的原因是專家給的回答不是我們喜好的,那我們要相信誰?這五個評審今天要是真的改判,我反而要去這五個評審的部落格留字,這裡我根本就不會留言,雖然當年魔戒中文版小說出的時候我也有訂(因為當時缺貨)。

****************************************************

我以「避免被刪除,暫存」就是不想讓看了題目就點進來的人造成誤會,「暫存」也就是暫時儲存在此,之後就看不到。那你會說為什麼不直接存在硬碟就好,答案是有時候我是在上班空檔偷回,公私不能不分。

朱先生再有名他也是人,我壞他招牌做什麼?八竿子打不著一處。

大家都要過生活賺錢,我真要亂要砸要踢,乾脆他每篇文章都去鬧,搞到他去報案請警察抓我不就得了?

至於我知不知道他的大名,他的行頭有多響亮,跟這篇主題有任何關係?今天若他和我一樣默默無聞,結果發動這個投票,我也一樣要問他:「讀聖賢書,所為何事?」,「朱先生,你和九先生都不用負責嗎?」

再引一下朱先生給我的第一篇回覆:http://blogs.myoops.org/lucifer.php/2008/03/04/vote2#c39310

「人之異於禽獸者幾希矣」。

可能我比較小人,或者我相信人性本惡,但朱先生給我的這個回應是個警鐘,使我作了這個另外存檔的動作,在這方面我是運用動物本能而已。

朱先生會不會刪別人的回應我不知道,我和他遠日無冤,近日無仇,換個角度講,我無從預測起;坦白說,要不是我用GOOGLE搜尋「九把刀小說」,然後相關詞有「九把刀抄襲」可以選,我也不會順著一個個部落格點到這來。

好,路人會問:那你去九把刀部落格碎碎念不就好了?

可問題是在於,辦這投票的不是九把刀,是朱先生。

(那麼以此而論,我一個字都沒改的貼回自己的部落格作為保全,可不可以?)

要是我真沽名釣譽,每個回應都附上我的網址不更好?朱先生的部落格一天的訪客可抵過我一年的來訪人次呢!

孔明可不敢當,我只是路人眾之一,十年後沒人會記得我,但是人們會記得朱和九先生。

以及十年後本來也該和我們路人一樣不知名的陳同學。

(palm君飄飄然有神仙之概,想必是當得了孔明,我可是在稱讚您。)

***************************************************

然後,我也沒要誰支持或反對我,萬萬不可下文字獄。

朱先生敢辦這投票,顯然也不怕有人質疑,理論上也該歡迎路人質疑他,不然不要辦嘛。(他都能質疑主辦單位和五位評審,以及陳同學和他的家人,對吧?)

至於我的文章和這個主題又有任何關係?大家很喜歡當陀螺嗎?

就如朱先生說的,他們一天不解釋,這個網頁就會一直存在;那麼事隔半年之後,我能不能再發言?雖然陳同學是圓是扁是藍是綠我不知道。

炒冷飯要熱起來很難,但不燙不是比較好嗎?我們又不是媒體或者公關業等靠曝光吃飯,話題和人物利用完了就丟到垃圾桶。
2008-09-14 @ 13:34
迴響 from: a6896023 [訪問者]
忘了補充:

1.「好像是」在本次文學獎的出版品中有會議記錄,在評「顛倒」的時候,一開始只有蔡素芬給顛倒一票,其他四位都是建議淘汰或保留,所以我們應該去自由時報網站,鞭他們不知道怎麼搞的,找一個怪咖來當副刊主編。

當然,這個「好像是」沒圖沒真相,充其量只能用「像極了」。

2.
若說我的極短篇「像極了」抄襲二十多年前的聯合報所編輯的幾本極短篇,那可就錯了,說詩「抄或改寫」自席慕容會比較有譜(雖然連詩味都不太有)。
2008-09-14 @ 14:18
迴響 from: chris [訪問者]
a先生被一群暴民圍剿,好可憐說........過了一年後來看,還是能感受到群體暴力的威力,真是了不得。
2009-12-11 @ 17:13
迴響 from: 自以為科科科 Lucifer [訪問者]
同名稱
一天到晚只會使用那三個字
我都替你感到悲哀


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