朱恐龍
朱恐龍

恭祝李家同大教授榮退! (16961 views)
     

很多網友都認為我一定會為我最敬愛的李家同教授退休這件事情寫一篇文章......

但你們錯了,我對他的仰慕怎麼會是一般世俗人可以理解和推斷的呢?

即使有網友質疑他為什麼三十三年間可以教出214個博士生,以每年7個博士生來計算,一個博士生要讀6-7年,李大教授每年同時帶了35個博士生,這樣會不會有教育品質上的問題?

但網友雖然質疑,但我還是相信李家同大教授的!

後來果然有他的學生出來說明,原來這個數學算式的意思是把他教出來的博士生和那些博士生的博士生,和那些博士生的博士生通通都加在一起混著算就有214個了!

這種類似直銷商的算法會讓我驚訝嗎?難道我們會因此對李家同教授感到失望嗎?難道我們會因此而對他批評嗎?

一點也不會!因為他去年就曾經講過「我的資訊系學生看到這點,個個搖頭嘆氣。耶穌是二千年前的人。如果每三十年有下一代出生,二千年過去了,起碼有了七十代,如果平均一個人生兩個孩子,至今耶穌的後代一定至少有二的七十次方,這是天文數字,一個小小的團體如何能夠做到這件事?」(2的七十次方是1.18059162* e21,大約是地球現行人口60億概數的196億倍。也就是說,根據李家同的說法,耶穌果然是個神!因為他在過去兩千年間子子孫孫可以生出196億個現行地球的人口數來!)

所以我們認為李家同教授這樣講還算客氣的呢!

Follow up:

所以我們在這邊當然是要跟著一群他的眾多門生一樣恭祝他老人家萬壽無疆,退休快樂!

但我敢打賭,就算李家同教授退休之後,我們還是可以照樣看到他無數主觀和偏頗的言論的!

不過也在那個慶祝活動中我感到不太理解啦!

因為好像就是那個今年的5月6號,不到一個月以前.....

http://www.tvbs.com.tw/news/news_list.asp?no=yu20080506123550#

李家同教授才對某校的大學生被派來迎接他而大感不滿。

我正想要為了李家同教授耿直的氣節,為這種不讓學生做跟自己本務沒有關係的事情的堅持,不讓學生逢迎拍馬的態度而感動流淚的時候.......

就又看到前幾天李家同教授榮退時的新聞,我不禁又疑惑了。

昨天典禮尾聲,由參加博幼課輔的小學生合唱以古英文書寫的離別歌曲「Auld lang syne」獻給李家同,全場民眾也起立合唱,李家同在學生簇擁下離開會場。

不是說不應該讓學生做不屬於自己本務的工作嗎?難道這些小學生是主動組織,主動練唱一首古英文的離別歌曲,主動來到李家同教授的榮退會場,主動獻唱?

怎麼這個時候李家同教授就和藹可親的科科笑著接受了?還在學生簇擁下離開會場,好像萬民擁戴一樣,怎麼這個時候李家同教授的氣節和骨氣就不見了?

還是說這個規則應該這樣解釋:學生不應該做自己本務以外的事情(←但若是能夠惹的我李大教授高興者除外

李教授還曾經投書報章雜誌,表示大學校園是神聖的,「外人之所以不能輕易進入大學,是因為大學是一個講究學術的地方,大學裡的教授和學生都是值得社會尊重的人。如果教授和學生都不值得大家尊重,社會不會有這種不能輕易進入校園的觀念。」 但為什麼忽然之間李大教授榮退的時候,暨南大學搞的跟個天主教的園遊會一樣「暨大史密斯廳響起進堂曲,歌詠、祈禱,朗誦祝福經文。」還跑來個主教頒授教宗降福狀,為什麼忽然之間宗教就可以進入神聖的校園了?大學的宗教中立到哪裡去了?

難道這個規則又該這樣解釋:大學校園是神聖的,外人不可以輕易進入。(←但我李大教授信仰的宗教除外

李家同教授,我真是猜不透你呀!

當然,李大教授剛一宣布退休,他可是人退嘴不退,馬上又對最近幾天的老師體罰事件發表了偉大的看法:

李大教授說老師只要失控,就沒有資格作老師.....嗯嗯。筆記筆記。

驚驚驚!

可是李大教授自己光是演講的時候底下有小朋友科科笑,就已經歇斯底里說是不是找錯人,不想繼續演講了耶?

那這樣是誰失控啦? Thomas Friedman去布朗大學演講開場時被人家砸了一個派,清理乾淨之後他還繼續演講,今天李教授因為高中生科科笑就翻臉威脅不想講了,這也是個人修養問題,沒什麼好說的。

但為什麼在演講上翻臉的一個教授可以批評其他老師失控,不適合繼續當老師?莫非李大教授也是因為這樣而自請處份退休的?

底下為影片原文轉錄:

老師:學生是這樣當的嗎?把你的講義拿出來

後面同學:嘻嘻...

老師:你們盡量笑,以後你們就不要做這種國文課輔,
   把你講義拿出來筆拿出來,不然輔導課我就把你畫掉,
   你不用來了,你這種態度我不歡迎你來

全班靜默...

老師:筆拿出來寫,想來上課就像個樣子,不然你就不要來了
   動作快一點

小胖很不甘願的在那邊發呆

老師:你再不寫,我立刻去教務處把你的名字劃掉

小胖:是~~~(心不甘情不願的回答)

老師:是什麼是!(老師拿著課本揍下去)

小胖大罵:幹你娘勒!

李教授演講的時候對高中生科科笑都要翻臉了,不知道對這種刻意激怒老師,安排同學在後面偷拍影片上傳網站,還送你一句幹你娘的學生要怎麼教?

http://news.yam.com/view/mkvideopage.php/20080602724571
李教授一邊彈鋼琴一邊語重心長的影片~~~看看有沒有啊斷章取義吧。

好難懂呀,為什麼自己做不到的事情要這樣要求別人?

Lucifer

科科~~~李教授系列直接相關的文章我們都寫到第三集了說~~~他真是太受歡迎啦!

喔,對了,在此描述對我國體罰教育心得的阿宅,我們將隨機抽出三本價值280元,華頓商學院選書:《我們比我聰明》,以表彰群眾智慧的偉大。

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迴響(481)

迴響 from: 我愛張台大 [訪問者]
頭香大屁股
2008-06-02 @ 10:45
迴響 from: 簡尼夫德萊尼 [訪問者] · http://www.gamebase.com.tw/mybase/kenneth1991/
亂發文
2008-06-02 @ 10:46
迴響 from: 我愛張台大 [訪問者]
我聽過李教授演講,那天他說颱風他要趕快趕回家~草草結束
2008-06-02 @ 10:46
迴響 from: wss [訪問者]
嘿嘿嘿!

又有前十!!

也狂賀李教授退休.................
2008-06-02 @ 10:51
迴響 from: wss [訪問者]
嘿嘿嘿!

又有前十!!

也狂賀李教授退休.................
2008-06-02 @ 10:51
迴響 from: 仙山居士 [訪問者] · http://blog.yam.com/ozasik
前十。看到李教授前先回文再想要怎麼批評...
2008-06-02 @ 10:51
迴響 from: wss [訪問者]
補一句.........

也希望他不要再演講或受訪了,專心教偏遠地區的小朋友英文吧,這樣應該比較有貢獻..........
2008-06-02 @ 10:55
迴響 from: 卜子 [訪問者]
我來了...
2008-06-02 @ 10:58
迴響 from: Jerry2000 [訪問者]
這個....
老教授總是舊觀念改不掉
老以為可以鄉愿的因材施教
卻忘了很多學生因環境與家庭因素造成人格偏差
已經是孺子不可教

還有老是希望演講有學生簇擁
不想看學生穿旗袍好像酒店"選秀"一樣 哈哈
我也不懂 到門口迎接穿旗袍幹嘛 科科
不過倒是可看的賣點啦

就好像去馬家庄要搞一個馬糞館一樣
要搞脫褲子放屁的人大有人在

不過老教授可能年紀大啦
講話都不經過大腦
可以教出這樣多博士生
這種算法 難怪老鼠會會橫行校園 科科

2008-06-02 @ 11:07
迴響 from: 類宅男 [訪問者] · http://www.wretch.cc/blog/enix4510
親愛的朱大,有沒有考慮過要製作一個BLOG連結貼紙
供我們這些茫茫宅海中的阿宅們連結啊?
太喜歡你的經典了。
2008-06-02 @ 11:11
迴響 from: Steve [訪問者]
看完這段影片.. 那個學生當然非常不應該, 但老師歇斯底里的態度及處理方式, 我個人認為也不妥, 有改進的必要.
2008-06-02 @ 11:11
迴響 from: 寶寶 [訪問者]
我不是阿宅也可以參加嗎?
我想不打不成器還是有其道理的,不過是在合理情況下給予合理體罰,
我代過課,我媽當過幾十年小學老師,
小孩精的很,被媒體教的好好,我告你喔!我叫我爸告你喔!不可以體罰喔!
都掛在嘴上,
也不可以罰寫,也不可以罵會傷到幼小心靈,
不可以罰站,剝奪上課權,
小學就會性騷擾同學,偷東西,上課搗亂
拜託人本來教教我們這種頑劣學生要怎麼對付吧!
2008-06-02 @ 11:11
迴響 from: 仙山居士 [訪問者] · http://blog.yam.com/ozasik
夫妻或男女朋友吵架,只有兩個原因,一個是男方,一個是女方。

而這種事情再複雜也只會看到任何一方的父母和環境。再回頭看那個事件,老師只是個人,被激怒的話也會生氣,如果這只是老師單方面不爽,那也罷。

但我親身遭遇的這類事件都不是這樣,一定都有一位叛逆的學生當引火點。(只有少數是老師自己生氣遷怒到其他人,我都只是旁觀者)

至於李家同叫獸呢?「別人不行只有他可以」,他的標準在某方面算一致的嘛。就別管他了(燦爛的笑)
2008-06-02 @ 11:11
迴響 from: drerk [訪問者]
遙想當年國中的時候
也是國文課
沒考好就來一頓板子
打手心還告訴我們這樣打其實跟拍手功一樣有益身心健康
科科~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
到了高職的年代
還考基本電學時
還被打小腿
最後我們畢業前
就把老師上課講電話的英姿
PO上網順便寄到教育部
得到了畢業前都在司令台上罰站的獎品
科科~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
從小到大只有遇過國小時一個詭異的老師
美術課跑來叫我們上中醫:p
恩~~~~~
這樣可以拿"我們比我聰明"這本書嗎
科科
2008-06-02 @ 11:12
迴響 from: alberto [訪問者]
前20?
2008-06-02 @ 11:14
迴響 from: carter [訪問者]
說到體罰,
我想主要還是小學以及國中的記憶吧。
我國小的時候還蠻長挨棍子的。
那時候常見的有:分數考不到標準,差幾分就揍幾下。
沒有寫作業或忘了帶課本以及作業,蹲馬步,站不好也會被揍。
比較分數導向的體罰要不要存在我是覺得就見仁見智,
不過那種品性有問題的,辱罵甚或毆打老師的,
(我以前唸的國中還有學生打老師的)
你不趁小教育一下,將來只會讓社會更哭哭的。
我是覺得這東東施行的時機要討論,
不過不適宜完全取消,
尤其是那種有關品性或道德的問題,ㄎㄎ。
2008-06-02 @ 11:15
迴響 from: wss [訪問者]
我國體罰教育的心得嗎???

從前我們唸書的時候,父母是希望老師體罰的,不成傷的前提下,隨便老師取用........

現在的家長嘛,老師你敢動我小孩一根寒毛,我就跟你拼命,順便去法院告你外加召開記者會!!

奇怪,以前被體罰的小孩現在當父母為何都不一樣了勒?

結論是:當年的小孩長大後,沒被體罰的小孩成績不好,現在只能乖乖當藍領階級辛苦上班,沒時間管教小孩,也反對體罰。
而被體罰過,乖乖唸書,成績好的一路唸書升學,覺得體罰有一定效果的,最後都去當老師了....(李家同大教授除外)
2008-06-02 @ 11:20
迴響 from: 機殼 [訪問者]
我一直覺得老師是很難過的職業

小六的時候
我們導師除了打人之外
還會冷言冷語的刺激你
而我國中的導師也是抓大狂的時候會拿藤條打人
但平常時就不斷的嘮叨

現在研究所了
我會想找我國中導師聊聊天
但我怎麼樣就是不想回國小...

我有好幾個同學大學的時候也是去國中補習班兼課
他一樣要用發飆來讓學生寫作業

長越大越有體悟
老師也不過是個人
只是教書是他的工作罷了

台灣現在處在一個尷尬的世代
教師的傳統價值正逐漸消失

每一代人之間
是存在著一種補償作用的

我們父執輩窮苦
所以我們從小教育要努力工作才不會餓肚子
我們這一代普遍憂鬱
我猜我們教育下一代將會是
快樂就好

教育這個議題也是
今天為什麼有人本
為什麼會有反體罰的聲浪
是因為當年那群被打的小孩長大了

再過十幾年
風水輪流轉
我想
體罰又會出現

禁止體罰有弊端
因為
老師喪失了一個較容易上手
容易控制的管理工具
而學生還是需要管理
只好尋求其他方法

有人搖頭現在的學生怎麼這麼難教

別傻了
這種類型的學生在十年前就有了
只是那時候網路不發達
消息並不會特別流通

國中老師就跟我說過
他一個在別的國中任教的朋友
上課上到一半被學生用椅子砸頭
中風

那老師該怎麼保護自己?

在我們大力宣揚人類的善意時
我們都會選擇性的忽略人類的惡意...

慈濟如此
人本如此
朱大上一篇的宗教團體也是如此

教育是門深奧的學問
沒辦法證明
沒辦法分類
無所謂放諸四海皆準的標準

教師與學生的角力
不過就是這混亂社會的縮影
2008-06-02 @ 11:26
迴響 from: PCuSER電腦人 [訪問者] · http://blog.pixnet.net/pcuser
朱學恒先生您好:

因為沒有您的聯絡方式,
冒昧在此留言打擾,您閱讀完後可將此篇留言刪除,

我是「PCuSER電腦人」的編輯,您可以稱呼我黃編輯,
電腦人網站:http://www.pcuser.com.tw/
電腦人部落格:http://blog.pixnet.net/pcuser

「PCuSER電腦人」以出版各種電腦資訊類的教學書籍為主軸,

而最近我們企劃出版一本與如何玩部落格相關的書籍,
此書將以輕鬆、有趣的方式來研究部落格經營與提升人氣上的技巧,

我們希望能邀請您接受我們的訪問,
在本書中現身說法,聊聊部落格經營的故事,
或者聊聊擁有人氣部落格的各種酸甜苦辣。

不知道您是否有意願接受本次訪問?
並在書中與讀者對話分享?
盼能接到您的回信。

PCuSER電腦人 黃編輯 敬上
2008-06-02 @ 11:26
迴響 from: mly [訪問者]
放大絕-
等你幫助過的學生比李教授多再來批評他吧! XD

李教授是有他食古不化冥頑不靈(誤)的地方,
當初就讀某天主教女中聽他演溝時,全校也因為某處發笑而被他嚴詞糾正,
但人家是真的關心教育,也做了很多事,
如果要向媒體一樣斷章取義,倒不如平衡報導一下啊,
也許是我對朱大這麼有影響力的部落格期許比較高吧!
2008-06-02 @ 11:27
迴響 from: davidtso [訪問者]
果然還是一般世俗人可以理解和推斷的還是寫了
然後這篇將會是引戰的...
2008-06-02 @ 11:30
迴響 from: 我愛張台大 [訪問者]
說說一個遙遠記憶中的故事:我國中時成績名列前茅,是師長眼中的好學生,有一次數學課上課前,同學問我,上次考卷有沒有帶?我說:啊,我忘了,同學說:好險好險,那忘了帶應該就不會怎樣,結果呢?老師沒打我,但還是打了他~~真他媽不公平啊!!!
2008-06-02 @ 11:31
不能體罰,那很好啊,
老師也樂得輕鬆,
反正你們這些死小孩的家長不管小孩,也管不動,
我當老師的幹麼要讓自己氣得半死?

上課來就唸唸課文,點點名,
學生沒來記得通報訓導處或是班導,
中輟生?快點滾吧,眼不見為淨。

對學生太兇的結果,很可能會被這些小鬼給設計上報,
到時侯說不定還會被解職,
安安穩穩的幹個25年等退休,
體罰學生?罵學生?我嘞神經病發作了嗎??
2008-06-02 @ 11:39
迴響 from: oskar---靠 看到書我就只好回文了 [訪問者]
關於這則新聞呢
我老弟想起了他們以前的國小老師
我們念的小學(大概18年前念小四的 靠我真老) 是位於台北縣的新X市 新X國小
這裡是一個小學生功課都好到讓我嚇到的小學
我在上一個小學(龍潭的小人國旁邊的高原國小) 都考前三名
轉學到這裡之後,我再也沒有考過前十名了...

說我老弟的悲慘遭遇之前
先談我自己遇到的
我轉學過去的時候,學號是57號,也就是說班上一共有57個學生
平常都是鬧哄哄的,特別是下課的時候
可是到了星期五的十點鐘接近上課的時候,突然每個人都不說笑了,
很安靜的跑回自己的位置上,平常跟我打屁聊天的人也都不理我了
我這個全新的轉學生,被那種肅殺的氣氛感染到,但是這時候我還不知道大家在幹嘛

這一堂是 珠算課
黑板上掛著一個超大的算盤,看起來就是老師用的
因為我常常都會忘記帶要用的教具,加上沒人跟我說過珠算課很重要
所以我就沒有帶算盤了
時間一到,衝進來了一個滿頭白髮有點嚴肅的女老師
"開始上課吧!把你們的算盤拿出來!"有點沒感情略兇的語氣

我下一次,看到一群人用很整齊劃一的動作做某件事情的時候,大概是當兵吧
我嚇了一跳,但是仍然強裝鎮定於我沒有帶算盤!!!
過了約略三秒鐘
只有我的桌上沒有算盤
老師瞄了一眼看到,我的桌上沒有算盤
hi~~~那個moment~~
醬爆...不對...珠算老師...爆了....
珠算老師就像吃了炸藥一樣,開始瘋狂罵我,
具體講什麼我已經忘記了(畢竟已經時隔十八年,如果當時我立刻被他殺掉,我現在已經又是一條好漢了)
但是,我整個嚇壞了,我好怕他會直接拿那個黑板的超大算盤從最前面丟向坐在最後面的我.
幸好她是女老師(現在回想起來)
後來,老師已經氣到想要衝向我的時候,她突然發現我好像蠻面生的,
就翻了翻點名簿,問我幾號,
我就趕緊說我是57號是轉學生,
老師可能覺得我是轉學生不懂規矩,怒火稍微消了一些,就把班長叫起來又狂罵了十分鐘.
那堂課...講珠算大概只有講到10分鐘吧
那堂課是我少數不會跟旁邊的人講話,不敢神遊四海的課程.
偉哉!珠算!

我老弟的五六年級導師,是我們學校有名的殺手導師
叫做 洪X亮
現在應該已經退休了,但是為了保護當事人,所以還是姑隱其名.
當時他進行過最可怕最慘烈的一場戰鬥是
情形是這樣的
有一位學生,我們叫他A生好了
國小六年之後,學生會開始喜歡翹課,甚至翹家,A生也不例外
有次他翹家三天,所以都沒有上學,洪老師非常生氣非常火
後來,得知A生回家了,
便跑去他家按電鈴,A生不疑有他出來開門之後,先是被老師臭罵一頓之後又被她痛扁
然後老師似乎有點消氣就走了
過程之中完全沒有跟家長打招呼,完全莫名其妙.

A生的地獄才剛開始...
隔天去上課,老師看到A生之後新仇舊恨湧上心頭
便叫A生到講台前
一開始先是臭罵一頓....
罵著罵著覺得不過癮,便拿了她的棍子開始打A生
一開始A生還會閃,越閃老師火越大,便給他了一巴掌,命令他不準閃
把A生抓緊之後,加強火力開始了她的五郎八卦棍法
A生受不了這等棍法的連番攻擊
就倒了下去...
一開始A生還會用手腳來黨老師的棍子
隨著老師不斷的用棍子打他,打到後來,學生已經不會動了 沒反應
2008-06-02 @ 11:47
迴響 from: oskar---靠 看到書我就只好回文了 [訪問者]
隨著老師不斷的用棍子打他,打到後來,學生已經不會動了 沒反應(此為我老弟跟他同班同學一致說法)

偉哉!洪X亮老師!
洪門的菁英果然是利害
幸虧我沒被他教到,不用嘗這可怕的 五郎八卦棍

寫這麼多,可以拿書了嘛...我好想要喔@.@

我隔壁班的同學,它們五年級的暑假作業,一共是60張全開的作業
裡面充滿了數學習題,而且都是14左右的字體喔,一張至少一百題
我同學她光是用抄的,就抄到快要哭出來了.
我的國小真是一所可怕的菁英小學,
真~~變~~態

現在的小學生應該不像我以前那麼悲慘了吧
2008-06-02 @ 11:52
迴響 from: 潛水夫 [訪問者]
看到書,想寫些什麼,但是腦容量不夠,過往被體罰的記憶已經被刪除了。

只能望書興嘆了。
2008-06-02 @ 11:58
迴響 from: CCH [訪問者]
1.親善大使是會讓阿宅科科笑的東西,但我想應該沒有阿宅會對小朋友科科笑。
2.教宗並沒到暨大阿!
3.混四年的大學生都可以享有盛大的畢業典禮了,李校長對暨大跟埔里的貢獻,有個園遊會沒差吧!
4.李校長嘴砲歸嘴砲,但他給予許多弱勢家庭的實質協助,絕對不只是嘴砲。
5.老師當然可以有自己的情緒,可以公開表達自己的不滿,但必須適度,不可一概而論。
6.以上胡說八道可以當作不存在 XD
2008-06-02 @ 11:59
迴響 from: oskar---靠 看到書我就只好回文了 [訪問者]
不過 小學我也是有遇過好老師的
我在三四年級念的這所高原國小就是一座很好的小學
這是一所很小的小學,一共六個年級12個班
每個班級大概30-40個學生
因為學校很小,所以你幾乎認識每一位老師
我在這個小學留下很多很美好的回憶
不光是,同學都是很好相處的人之外
這裡也有著很多教學認真而且耐心熱情的老師
我小四的時候,來了一個新導師,我記得他姓李
是一位很年輕的老師,
他的教學方式對我當時以及包含後來也都是從來沒有再看到過的教學方式
他創造了一個非常輕鬆的教學空間
而且也讓大家樂於學習
這樣的環境我大概只在已經美化好的外國教育電影內有看到
但是,我很幸運地,曾經遇到過一個這樣的好老師
我一直到大學才有類似的體驗...不過,也只能說是類似

舉幾個例子來說吧
李老師她推行的第一個事情就是
每個人都要稱呼彼此名字,不能連名帶姓的叫
這樣子雖然感覺是蠻彆扭的,不過,在當時來說真的有促進了大家相處的氣氛
第二是
他的數學課每次開始的時候都會跟大家玩遊戲
我記得其中一個遊戲是猜字卡
數學課就是心算,有個簡單的算式寫在一張大概50cmx20cm的卡上面
輪流舉手去搶答,搶答到的人就能夠回到座位上
前三名有獎品,最後的五個人,老師也不會處罰它們
通常會鼓勵她們,接著在課後去詢問她們在學習上的問題.
李老師有很多遊戲使用,他也很了解小朋友的心理
很能讓大家乖乖地聽他的話,讓班上形成很好的學習氣氛.

人生就是這樣你會遇到好人,也會遇到壞人
你會遇到濫情人,也會遇到好情人(...這點我保留啦...因為阿宅我還沒遇到)
老師,也許也是這樣的市場吧!!!

這個國小有很不錯的兩性教育
她會花很多時間讓學生們練習跳土風舞,水舞...等各式各樣的舞蹈
特別是接近聖誕節或是特別的節日我們就要練習
最多也是校慶表演而已,但是我們都是表演給自己學校內部或是家長看而已
並不是為了特定的獎賞,也不是為了比賽,但是老師們都很盡心地讓大家學習
在這個學校雖然我剛剛開始進入尷尬期知道男生女生的差別
可是我們還是跟小女生互動的很自然,特別是跳舞牽手的時候
我想這都是要歸功於老師們塑造的好環境吧

(不過,學校也是有偷親魔人,超愛偷親女生的,幾乎每個女生都被那個男孩偷親過,
其實我小時候很羨慕他,但是,我不敢....)
2008-06-02 @ 12:18
迴響 from: 正咩....??? [訪問者]

..........死了?!
2008-06-02 @ 12:22
迴響 from: soren. [訪問者]
WHY
2008-06-02 @ 12:25
迴響 from: soren [訪問者]
為什麼都不能回文
2008-06-02 @ 12:27
迴響 from: oskar---靠 看到書我就只好回文了 [訪問者]
這個學校非常認真上 其他非智育相關的課程
例如 音樂課
音樂課老師是學校的訓導主任
是一個非常熱情的中年男子
除了上課本要學的一些樂理的東西,練習發聲,唱歌之外
主任也常常教我們唱客家山歌
我永遠忘不了他唱著客家山歌那種陶醉的神情,跟熱情激昂的嗓音
雖然我聽不懂客家話,但是我似乎能夠看見歌曲傳達的歡愉跟畫面

而且主任也很會說故事
長大後我發現,當時他所說的故事應該是他自己編撰的
因為我曾經試著去搜尋當中的關鍵字
但是從來都沒有找到過類似的故事了
那是關於三兄弟的故事,但是內容是非常長篇的故事
他講了一整年都沒有講完
每次上課同學最期待的就是讓他講關於這三兄弟的故事
很可惜的,一直到我後來轉學了,都沒能夠聽完這個故事

這所小學是一所很棒的小學,談到這麼多
都讓我想要驅車回去探訪一下已經將近20年沒有在踏上的地方了
如果我有小孩,希望他長大也能在這麼快樂的地方學習.
2008-06-02 @ 12:29
迴響 from: Cy Young Choas [訪問者]
基本上在下是贊成因才(材,豺)施(失)教的
對學生能教則教之
不能教則視狀況處理之(現在的体罰太廣義了,廿年前有幾個孩子在學校被老師扁還敢回家告狀的)
現在的社會,父母太寵小孩了,教師都綁手綁腳
如果身為教師連基本的課堂制序都無法維護,那對想要上課的孩子並不公平。
教育的目的不是只有讀書,有時對不良學生的處理也是一種對其他學生的教育
放縱,只會讓未來的曙光越來越遠。
2008-06-02 @ 12:32
「廿年前有幾個孩子在學校被老師扁還敢回家告狀的」

同意+1
小時候頑皮,和同班的狐群狗黨從學校四樓潑水下去淋一年級的學弟,
結果被指認出來,
四個男生被我的班導(男老師喔)用一根直徑約2CM的棍子痛扁手心和屁股,
老粳,我還當班長,所以被多打了一倍的棍子(我記得是手心10下,屁股也是10下),
打到根本不能坐,手也無法拿筆,
可是偏偏回家根本不敢吭氣,
結果當天下課後,可恨的副班長(臭女生~~)還跑去向我娘告狀!!

媽啊,後來小弟在家裡差點被我娘用衣架打死…
我娘隔天還跑去學校和老師說對不起…
2008-06-02 @ 12:56
補充一下,
那天是下午四點,快下課前被俺老師痛打屁股和手心的,
結果放學回家在吃晚飯前,又被我娘的曬衣架狂抽屁股,
幹,各位知道那有多痛嗎??

我娘隔天跑去學校是對老師說:對不起,害老師生氣了,下次如果俺不乖,老師可以打用力一點…
2008-06-02 @ 13:02
迴響 from: oskar---靠 看到書我就只好回文了 [訪問者]
To simon...

我們家的家風...跟你家如出一輒阿

在家裡...

看到長輩沒叫人...打

不自己起床...打

不準時回家...打

考試考不好...打

在學校搗亂...打
2008-06-02 @ 13:07
迴響 from: 歲歲平安 [訪問者]
難怪大陸把“專家教授”KUSO成“磚家叫獸”……說句話都給人拍磚的“專家”和只會亂叫的禽獸“教授”……
2008-06-02 @ 13:10
迴響 from: 人家老了 [訪問者]
糊塗的事就睜一隻眼閉一隻眼吧...
反正他都要退休了...
只怕他開始瘋狂出書宣揚詭異思想..
2008-06-02 @ 13:14
迴響 from: cyber runner [訪問者] · http://orz18.blogspot.com

李教授都出現光環了
科科

那些正妹穿旗袍
好看唷
XD
2008-06-02 @ 13:15
迴響 from: Leo Liao [訪問者]
看了這麼慘的體罰經驗,
忍不住大叫:
這就是斯巴達!!
2008-06-02 @ 13:19
迴響 from: 潛水夫 [訪問者]
”我娘隔天跑去學校是對老師說:對不起,害老師生氣了,下次如果俺不乖,老師可以打用力一點…”

看到這一句,我竟然笑了。

想到現今的情況,再有耐心,再有想法的老師,恐怕也會教得戰戰兢兢的。
2008-06-02 @ 13:21
迴響 from: 丫亮仔 [訪問者]
(那個,來說一下理想主義者的觀點……orz)

幾年前修「情意教育」時,課堂上討論過體罰的問題,曾針對當時一線教師皮亞純所提出的觀點:
http://www.kcta.org.tw/forum/wage.asp?TopicId=581

有不同的看法:
我讀〈杜絕體罰,並不能友善校園,還可能助長更暴力的行為──如果再不加增第一線教師的資源〉:

作者皮亞純提出教育部「零體罰」主張是對第一線教師的疏離,並以當前國中小學教師面臨的教育現場人力不足的窘境,來指涉局外人的民間團體以體制外學校的標準等不同的背景來看待體制內學校教育現實的謬誤,同時申明教育部不瞭解基層問題,讓改革的方向更偏差。最後提出,老師需要協助,教育困境必需改善,指責老師於事無補,應制定合法有效的輔導管教辦法才是當前的首要重事。

文章中多次指出,對於教育現場中,面對許多愛打人生事的孩子,教師若沒有體罰權利,即無法矯正孩子的偏差行為。這是否是作者預設立場,且低估了教育前線教師的能力?

教師矯正學童的偏差行為,原本就有許多策略,教改團體反對體罰,除了因為體罰會造成學童身心的創傷外,同時也因為體罰與教育目標並無真正的因果關係。如:處理愛打人的小孩時,教師也打他兩下,叫他去牆邊罰站,這樣就能教會他必須尊重其他人的人身權利嗎?

作者行文中甚至出現:「老師們知道孩子因為缺少愛,才會傷人,但不能成為他侵犯他人合理化的藉口,尤其是那些不願意帶孩子就醫或為孩子行為負責的父母,老師打了他們的小孩兩下,也是為了遏止他們對別人的侵害,預防問題惡化啊!」之類,企圖合理化教師體罰學童的現象。

如果說小孩因為缺少愛而傷人,不能成為他侵犯他人合理化的藉口,那麼教師憑什麼合理化「侵犯他人」的事實?

教師對學童的學習身負著避無可避的典範作用,那麼以體罰來處理打人的學童,是否正讓學童學習到「以暴制暴」呢?

同時,教師又如何拿捏自己在體罰學童時,不是為了宣洩自己的情緒呢?

從另一個角度來看「零體罰」政策,當教育現象因為制度而杜絕了教師對學童的體罰時,是否,更多替代性可能對學童有真正助益的教育策略就會被選擇?剛開始面對傳統體罰方式被剝奪的教師也許會面臨一陣子找不到替代方案的窘境,但很多事情在窘境中就會出現轉機,當教師找到一條不需要體罰也能有效導正學童偏差行為的方式時,內心對於教育的體認一定也不同。

如果我們預設人都是因為受傷才會有傷人的舉動,那麼實際上沒有人真正喜歡「打人」的,教師亦然!那麼,「零體罰」政策不正是為那些「吾豈愛體罰哉?吾不得不然」的廣大教師們找到另一個出口嗎?

此外,本文明顯地主要訴求是:希望教育部能在體制內教育現場,增加對基層教師的支持與健全目前不足的輔導制度。這樣的訴求原本無可厚非,但作者卻將這些建言與反對「零體罰」的意見糾纏,全文讀下來,似乎只有體罰才是教育現場的萬靈藥。但,增加對基層教師的支持與健全輔導制度原就是當前教育體制必需努力的方向,這與「零體罰」政策又有何悖謬呢?


2008-06-02 @ 13:26
迴響 from: Leo Liao [訪問者]
國中時,聽我的老師說,他剛畢業時在南部教書.以前鄉下的家長還是接受體罰. 所以他也沒有注意,常常卯起來體罰.
某次,他踹了一個學生幾腳.隔天家長到學校來找他.
家長說:"老師這個孩子不乖的話,盡量打!!打呼死!!"

"但是,"家長接著說,"可不可以請老師不要用踹的...."

此後他就再也沒打過學生.
2008-06-02 @ 13:30
迴響 from: 凜透 [訪問者]
http://220.228.153.69/novel_board/boardw.asp?b_id=58346
看到有關體罰的話題 不禁想到最近常上的論壇一篇有關體罰跟零體罰的文章
學生問題越來越多阿..
2008-06-02 @ 13:32
迴響 from: 丫亮仔 [訪問者]
還有後來和網友後續的相關討論:

何況,教師和父母的定位不同,體罰小孩的權力到底在哪裡?這麼多年了,體罰不斷的教育,試
問教出了怎樣的孩子?他們更有禮貌?更懂得體諒尊重別人嗎?有多少老師拿起鞭子時,能夠掌控自己的情緒?

老師難為,我承認。但我也覺得「零體罰」的政策不但解救了孩子,更是老師們的福音!至少,老師不用再為了學生好,而背負打人後的罪惡與難受。既然體罰走不通了,也許會有更多老師認真思考其他的策略。

我不贊成體罰,但絕不認為小孩要被放任。有時,剝奪他的喜好,也是一種懲罰,不是嗎?
只是教導孩子的方法,有待大人的創意去開發。

這是我的一點想法,提供大家參考囉。

而實務上,我真的覺得第一線的教師非常偉大,增加對基層教師的支持與健全輔導制度,一直都是必需且刻不容緩的。

2008-06-02 @ 13:33
迴響 from: Nobody [訪問者] · http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/hyh541225
朱大並不宅嘛
哪個阿宅有一呼千應、還兼美麗女助理安排行程呢??
這裡的文章拜讀過應該有個ㄜ.....好幾篇了
仔細分析起來還真的是很多牛頭不對馬嘴耶
一篇文章下來,徒子徒孫比孫悟空的毛還多,孫猴子跟你鬥法,恐怕毛都拔光了還傷不了朱大您的一根毛
但是~~~即使這樣,我有說朱大你很爛爛爛爛爛爛爛爛爛爛爛爛嗎??
有用力搖用力搖用力搖用力搖用力搖用力搖用力搖你的徒子徒孫一起唾棄你嗎??
沒有嘛~~~我還是繼續潛水繼續欣賞繼續看你的文哈哈大笑
不爽的跳過去就好了嘛~~~~
人是很複雜的東西,評論好壞本來就不容易
用最簡單的0~100分好啦,你是幾分??我是幾分??他是幾分??

孔子這小子,即使那麼多人稱他完美,他在家裡要是不盡義務、不讓老娘歡心,一樣把他踢出去周遊列國
所謂"女子與小人難養也"不過是他的藉口,自己體力不濟就不敢說
孔子你打幾分??給我看啊給我看啊

有個大醜男,全身爛到不行,但是號稱"大蔭人",就是有那麼一天被太后發現了,弄到後宮來,還好吃到相報
MD~~~從此就榮華富貴
大蔭人你打幾分??給我看啊給我看啊

人家李大教授固然說了讓你不爽的話、擺了不少大架子,但是人家好歹做過很多事嘛
你打幾分??是零分是零分是零分是零分是零分是零分是零分是零分是零分是零分是零分是零分
有這麼爛嗎??

難道阿宅注定要受到萬年台劇港劇那種不是0就是100的濫劇情荼毒嗎??
你說啊你說啊你說啊你說啊你說啊你說啊你說啊你說啊你說啊你說啊你說啊你說啊你說啊你說啊你說啊你說啊

下次把人家砍了殺了煮了都沒關係
但是事後要把頭拿出來拜一拜
畢竟人家不是零分嘛

羞辱完之後還得摸摸頭才符合阿宅不偏食的特性嘛

對了~~~你問我是誰的頭??哪顆頭??
就是你常不甩的那顆頭啊
2008-06-02 @ 13:34
迴響 from: 丫亮仔 [訪問者]
(咦,前面被切掉了?補上。)

要不要體罰這個議題,已經爭議粉久了。

我覺得在看待「體罰」時,首先要和「懲罰」分開。所謂的「體罰」對我來說,是侵犯到他人
的身體界線,包括身體上的和言語上的,而這種對待方式會導致許多後遺症。比如說在穆怡梅
翻譯的《治療的勇氣》套書中,就提到童年時期曾被暴力對待的孩子,身體界線遭到破壞,容
易產生不良的自我形象,到了成年仍然很難劃清人我界線。另外,忘了在哪裡讀到的,在心理
治療中,許多有被虐傾向的患者,往往童年都在暴力陰影下長大。有些教養小孩的大人在對小
孩進行體罰時,常說「我都是為你好的」,因此這些孩子無意識地就接收了「愛和被虐」是在
一起的。還有,在被「忽視」和「被打」間,孩子往往寧願選擇被打,因為這代表自己沒有被
放棄。

我們在上一堂課也曾有同學提出,被老師打的很嚴重的孩子,回去看老師並感謝他。我們則以
為,「打」並不是重點,重點是在「感覺自己沒有被放棄」。但,要讓學生感受到老師的關
懷,難道只能用「打」的?

更何況,處罰的方式那麼多,為什麼「體罰」會被認為是最有效的呢?這當中是否也是有迷
思?究竟做錯事情,和被打之間有什麼關連性呢?討論的過程中,我曾舉一例:

小明去打了同學,老師把他叫到講堂前,告訴全班的同學:「打人是不對的!」然後叫小明伸
出手,當著全班的面,拿「愛心棒」打小明的手心。

不覺得很荒謬嗎?
2008-06-02 @ 13:35
迴響 from: rainy [訪問者]
如果李家同教授可以傳授一下如何對付冥頑不靈學生的招術的話,那就算他厲害.只是台下學生竊笑就抓狂的李教授,會有什麼不用體罰就管得住學生的方法呢,真是讓人期待ㄚ.
2008-06-02 @ 13:36
迴響 from: 潛水夫 [訪問者]
教育不是只有在學校吧!家庭(或家長)就完全沒有責任了?

以前我們會”乖”,是因為知道,在學校如果不乖,除了在學校會被打(罰)外,回家還有一頓。

現在的小孩不乖,除了老師不敢碰以外,家長會幫著小孩對付老師。

老師真難為。
2008-06-02 @ 13:42
迴響 from: 流浪小米 [訪問者] · http://www.wretch.cc/blog/max9797
原來直銷是從學校傳開來的啊(筆記)
2008-06-02 @ 13:59
迴響 from: 丫亮仔 [訪問者]
贊成「老師真難為」,所以,才會覺得提供對第一線基層教師的關懷(包括實務與心理建設的)和健全輔導制度是非常重要的。

另外,理論上與理想上,家長對於孩子的教育當然都是責無旁貸的。但就如同老師是人,家長也是人,如果沒有真正的自覺、願意負責任,小孩的教育問題往往總被踢皮球。每次看到國小學童一下課就被接到安親班,有的甚至安置到晚上九點多,回家就是看電視、睡覺……。總是感到挺無奈呀!但也只能相信,生命會找到出口,一旦一個人開始覺知到自己,改變就會有可能呀。

所以,在家庭教育的不足下,健全將影響到絕大多數兒童的教育體制,我覺得就更重要了。

提供親職教育的一本書:

http://www.books.com.tw/exep/prod/booksfile.php?item=0010293816

(忘了說,本人抽獎運一向不佳,自動棄權不抽獎啦!)
2008-06-02 @ 14:01
迴響 from: Blue [訪問者]
樓上阿亮放棄不參加
那我可以連他的份參加兩次嗎?
和李大教授相較之下,就算獎品不是書
是給阿宅的燕巢有......機芭我都很有興趣
2008-06-02 @ 14:17
迴響來自: 潛水夫 [訪問者]
教育不是只有在學校吧!家庭(或家長)就完全沒有責任了?

以前我們會”乖”,是因為知道,在學校如果不乖,除了在學校會被打(罰)外,回家還有一頓。

同意+1
所以小時候我超怕一種東西叫「母姐會」的,
只要老師說了一句俺在學校很調皮…

粳,死了,回家的路就覺得好漫長啊啊啊啊啊啊啊~~


還有丫亮大說的沒錯,
「打」並不是重點,重點是在「感覺自己沒有被放棄」。

喵的嘞,小時候我被打慘了,
不光是我啊,隔壁的大毛還有對面的臭皮,
菜市場裡的小孩,
那個不是從小被打到大的?

從來就沒有聽說過什麼虐童案,
或是要告老師之類的屁話,

我娘每次打完俺了之後,
還不是半夜都會偷偷起來看看俺的屁股有沒有怎麼樣?

俺的師尊,每次都是痛打我們一頓之後,
還要凖備「虎標萬金油」給我們擦。

我的心裡有體罰陰影嗎?
屁啦,現在俺還不是常常在妻女和俺娘面前,
表演小時我被打的反應,
包括我娘一臉兇狠的模樣,順便開開我娘的玩笑。

我會恨老師嗎?屁啦,
現在看到白髮蒼蒼的師尊,
還不是乖乖的,恭恭敬敬的鞠躬,
大聲說:「老師好!!」

因為我知道當年他們的板子裡,從來沒有放棄過我這個臭小子啊!!
2008-06-02 @ 14:18
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
要看李教授被摸頭,就去看各個媒體就好啦!

看那摸的可順著呢,這個部落格不需要也跟著摸,我不喜歡摸老人科科~~~

話說上次我那個拍紀錄片的朋友也跟我說李教授看到你是相熟的媒體記者就好熱情的哪!但如果是拍紀錄片想要多問幾句恐怕就有困難有困難哪......

Lucifer

這種長者風範我們當然要學起來!

2008-06-02 @ 14:25
迴響 from: Morris [訪問者]
嗯...今天算是路過好了...
2008-06-02 @ 14:27
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
啊,還有,只給我留言一行沒分享的不能抽獎呀!

我們有先進助理人工辨識系統可以分辨的!請各位勿抱持僥倖心態!


Lucifer
2008-06-02 @ 14:30
迴響 from: oskar---靠 看到書我就只好回文了 [訪問者]
阿亮仔
提出的這些文章跟觀點都不錯

我自己很熱愛去思考情緒生成的原因
一部分主因是因為
雖然我是個活潑又開朗朋友又多 女性朋友也多(每天都跟不同女生聊電話)體育功課也不錯的人
但是 我遇見自己喜歡的女生就是會一片空白
說話結巴
想一堆方法但是就不敢打電話給他,
典型那種無法表達自己情緒的那種男生
(啊...不小心跑太遠了)

總之,這邊提到的學生頑皮,體罰,以暴制暴...這些都跟情緒管理有關
不管是學生的情緒還是老師的情緒管理...
了解成因還是蠻重要的

舉個例子來說
老師會施用處罰,不論是甚麼形式的,都有適當不適當的問題存在
而判別適當與否的標準其中一個參考就是
老師在施行這樣的處罰的時候,是不是因著其個人情緒,例如憤怒而導致...
我們在和平學的學習中,花很多時間探討的就是憤怒的成因
憤怒=恐懼 這是我們常去思考的一個方向
片中的老師發飆,憤怒的打學生
是她恐懼失去主導權,恐懼失去對學生的操控力,恐懼失去他自己的威信...
恐懼如果是內心層面,而憤怒就是她外顯在外表的形式...
所以負面情緒產生的時候,常要思考的事情是,底下所存在的恐懼是甚麼?

我十分認同老師也是人,也有情緒,而且現今的第一線教師確實不好當的狀況
但是,我十分擔心的是,我從小到大好像我們的教育環境並不重視情緒管理的問題,
沒人教學生在成長的過程中如何處理情緒的問題的話
我們怎麼會有善於處理情緒問題的老師的出現?

可惜是,情緒管理不能當作考試考吧...也不是一個明顯可以被測量的指標.
但是,重要性我們卻要用離開校園之後的時間自己去體會.

上面那篇酸文阿
要戰也要有戰力阿

宅霸他並沒有否定李家同教授的成就吧?
他只是認為身為公眾知名人物的李先生,他的言行都能夠被公論的立場下,
懷疑跟檢討他的論點
如果你覺得他思路不對,你可以提出論點.
用酸的戰力太弱了.

今天他朱宅霸跳出來說一些警世的錯誤言論,會有人理他嘛?會有人真的受到影響嗎?
除了阿宅界稍微振動一下之外,我想是沒有.
可是李家同教授的言行既然是記者追逐的方向是大家學習的指標,那就更值得收到公評私論,不是嘛?

我從小就看長大,我也很敬佩李家同先生跟他的成就.
但是,這並不意味著在我的心中他就該是一個完人而且不能被批評.
有血有肉的人就是有他的優缺點,
好的那塊,壞的那一塊一起拚湊起來的才是真實的人,活生生的人,有血有肉的人類,對吧?

最後,幽默感很重要,雖然我平日很嚴肅,人老了之後也趨近於不好笑狀態
但是,幽默感仍然非常重要,希望您要幽默一點阿.

2008-06-02 @ 14:30
迴響 from: oskar---我想看書但是不要買可以嘛 [訪問者]
不是看貢獻喔...

可以因為打字打很多很多很多

就提高機率的嬤 XD
2008-06-02 @ 14:31
迴響 from: 迪歐 [訪問者]
ker~ker~~

終於被我等到了~~
還在想說怎麼朱大會沉默那麼久~~
2008-06-02 @ 14:34
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
就跟你說這是人工辨識系統嘛!誠意夠了助理自然會有感應呀!

Lucifer

這裡又不是李家同上課的地方,我在這裡經常被幹呀!但李大教授的課堂上何時見過那一位夠種的學生站起來抗顏以對說李教授你昨天投書又寫錯了!

李家同如果有這種學生我送他一年份少年快報以資鼓勵!
2008-06-02 @ 14:35
迴響 from: oskar---我想看書但是不要買可以嘛 [訪問者]
先前談到憤怒跟恐懼的因果關係
所以說
李家同教授講課被笑,學生鬧一下就不爽.
這分兩個層次
一.收回學生的心跟注意力的刻意而為
二.學生不專心而惱羞成怒

兩者都有可能 前者境界比較高我就姑不論
後者的話,就是修養高深的問題.
不過,畢竟遇到這樣的狀況,生氣是正常的,苛責李先生是沒甚麼必要.
只是呢...相同的條件下
李教授沒有資格指著那個犯錯的老師沒有教育的資格,這樣的論點也就相當合理了.
那個悲天憫人的李教授,應該是有這樣的同理心的.
我想只是又被該死的女支者斷章取義了吧!!!

2008-06-02 @ 14:39
迴響 from: 私心 [訪問者]
樹多必有枯枝,人多必有白痴。
老師一樣、學生也是一樣。差別是老師是經過選擇考驗出來的
而學生並沒有
我個人對於體罰並不反感

我對於自已人品很差的老師。還會質疑學生的人覺得很可恥
老師不是神。學生也不是神
包容心才是硬道理

還有
老師常忘了,你能做為一個老師,並不是何方一方都優於學生才做老師的。
單純是因為你的專長
不要以為一件事情比學生厲害就看扁學生

很多時候的問題就是出在於老師莫名奇妙的自尊心上啊~~
2008-06-02 @ 14:41
迴響 from: oskar---我想看書但是不要買可以嘛 [訪問者]
講到被學生幹譙...

從前我跟動物系魔人們一起修免疫學
同時間魔人們也在上分子生物學
那年的分子生物學老師群有點遜
那也就算了,最慘的是原本教免疫學的老師大休
派了一個植物系的老師負責上免疫學部分的分子生物學...

這老師...上得很爛,我不想怪他,因為他是植物系,免疫學對他是天書是正常的
我靜靜地找了個安全的地方開始準備冬眠
愉快的欣賞這個植物系老師的表演跟他所講錯的部分
哀憐於那些沒上過免疫學的同學們,不知道要怎麼被誤導了
科科

這時候...我突然發現...最前面那兩排坐滿的...
不正是動物系魔人群嘛...
=.=\\\
接著...就開始植物系老師這一生最痛苦的回憶了

所有的魔人們,此起彼落的在老師說錯的時候,不斷地舉手起來訂正
"老師,這裡你說錯了喔,應該是ooxx"
"老師,這邊也不對喔,這邊應該是ooxx"
"老師,正確說法應該是ooxx,你說的那個應該是aabb"
整整地,持續了兩個小時...

(聽說隔年這個植物系老師上分生上得非常棒
某個角度想,我反而挺佩服他這種遇挫愈勇的精神,雖然說那一年他很糗...)
2008-06-02 @ 14:46
迴響 from: zetoei [訪問者]
老師不能打學生…

那我們是否可以換個方式來想…
叫學生去處罰學生…

或許也一樣能達到相同的功效也不一定!

反正沒有規定學生不能去體罰學生阿…(同學間的互相抵制)
2008-06-02 @ 14:48
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
根據民明書房的記載,確實有學校是讓學生彼此之間互相懲罰的,據說效果還相當好!

Lucifer

2008-06-02 @ 14:54
迴響 from: elle fe' [訪問者]
臭 恐 龍 !


fe'



2008-06-02 @ 14:58
迴響 from: oskar---我想看書但是不要買可以嘛 [訪問者]
Be a man! Samurai School!

魁!男塾!
還真是不好翻譯
lucifer你會怎麼翻?
2008-06-02 @ 15:20
對了忘記留言了,

朱大,關於獎品部份,
小弟也自動棄權不抽獎~~
把機會留給各位大大。
2008-06-02 @ 15:31
根據偉大的李教授所言


我念的國小國中高中的老師通通都不適任


應該通通換成偉大的李教授的克隆人




異形,20歲



江西小太陽勒!現在的學生是怎樣啦!!
2008-06-02 @ 15:40
迴響 from: chuck [訪問者]
怎麼貼圖啊...最近新聞對李伯伯興趣比較少了...
2008-06-02 @ 15:47
>迴響來自: chuck [訪問者]
>>怎麼貼圖啊...最近新聞對李伯伯興趣比較少了...


這裡只有恐龍可以貼圖
2008-06-02 @ 15:48
迴響 from: kuang [訪問者]
說說我國中的情況。

那時的國中還是男女分班的時候,男生班一個學級有三班,
好死不死那一屆三個班導師,竟然同時為學校最出名的導師。
c班老師武器為細細的竹子,隨手可得,掃把一抽就一根。習慣攻擊部位-手掌。
b班老師武器為齊眉藤條,正手打累還可以換手反打(老師有在打網球),打到藤條開花,被打的同學還要趕快跑到導師室去拿備份藤條過來繼續被打。攻擊部位,依照距離考試時間有區別-手掌考試後,屁股考試前。
a班老師武器為眼神........。
--------------------------------------------
國一時被分發到b班,那時才知道隨身攜帶手帕衛生紙的重要性。而後奮發向上,終於在國二時讓我成績達到a班的程度,那刻真的很高興。

在a班則是截然不同的感受。由於班導師教過的學生很多,那時少年組的隊長及地方老大都是a班老師的學生。有次同學蹺家,街頭遊蕩被少年組的帶到隊上,第一個通知的竟是班導師,班導師一個吩咐,同學就留在隊上寫功課,早上由警車送到學校上課。
至於,拿椅子丟老師或者對老師口氣不好,那時班上沒人敢,因為我們常常看到老大到學校找班導師聊天,連老大都要恭恭敬敬雙手奉煙給老師,我們這些小毛頭哪敢造反。

所以體罰,我是贊成,不過要適當,最好是達到『會怕就好』。
2008-06-02 @ 15:52
迴響 from: chuck [訪問者]

當了老師才知老師難為的地方...李伯伯教的可說是還不錯的學校
如果像我們一樣教到一些只想混學歷的學生...
唉~~~要當學生口中的好老師呢?還是自己心中的好老師?
難啊~~~
對了記得國中時,別班有個理化老師..打女同學時都要求她們把裙子掀起來耶~~
可惡...為什麼不是我們班的...
禁止體罰也好啦...小時候我一直認為.我幹了壞事你打我我沒意見
但我考不好被打實在沒道理,還說什麼現在你們會恨我..以後就會感激我了
更~~~恁爸現在還是很恨國中時打我的數學老師啦~
我更恨理化老師...聽你上課真是浪費時間...我自己看參考書還比較詳細
奉勸各位老師啊....學生不想聽就算了...為了他們生氣..不值得啊~



2008-06-02 @ 15:54
迴響 from: vita [訪問者]
生:「是~~~」師:「頂什麼嘴(巴掌)」-----這個老師很在意學生的口氣,直接一巴掌

生:「幹你娘咧」師:「我張老師可以給你罵著玩的嗎?.....憑什麼~你很棒嗎」-----張老師認為學生罵他是在玩,而她「張老師」是不能隨便給人罵著玩的

生:「我都沒動手也」師:「你那什麼嘴巴~~什麼態度」----張老師實在很在意態度

師:「你再不給我坐好寫筆記,就給我滾~~你來這裡就是要聽我的,不然你就不要來」「看什麼,給我聽清楚~待會誰態度不好被我逮到活該~我今天要是抓狂我就是要修理人~以後像這種上課態度,我就是上課跟你嗆~我可以不上課我跟你陪你拼命~誰怕誰啊~很好笑是不是?~怎麼樣,我怕你嗎~~不爽聽~你想嗆嗆啊~小胖你罵啊」-----張老師比較不在意上不上課,但很在意學生有沒有聽她的,也在意學生會以為她怕他們,

師:「起來」生:「憑什麼」師:「大過啊!!」生:「為什麼大過」師:「跟我嗆!」生:「你打我也」師:「對,你給我記著」生:「打我是不是」師:「憑什麼嗆我反抗」生:「我沒有嗆你,我回答你啊」-----張老師很不喜歡人家反抗,反抗要記大過。這樣怎麼造就學生以後嗆老闆嗆社會的勇氣呢?

生:「不寫講義不行喔」師:「不行~你可以滾了不用來上課」~~師:「廢話」生:「廢話什麼」師:「該寫的為什麼不寫」----老師可以理所當然的決定,什麼學習方式最好。

師:「我會建議主任你不用來」生:「對~~~」師:「我會做!」生:「好~~~」師:「要不要做,是我的事」生(沉默)師:「怎樣?」生「怎樣?」生:「怎樣?」師:「怎樣?」生:「怎樣什麼?」師:「怎麼什麼~允許你回嘴嗎」師:「怎樣什麼?」生:「我那有頂嘴~你先打人的」~~~師:「吵死人的也是你~~在這邊整天吵的也是你」------張老師是還活在封建時代嗎,回嘴還要允許。小胖應該不喜歡上這種課,但有誰敢告訴他,留在那間教室對他不會有幫助,他應該頭也不回的離開。

同意機殼先生:「教師與學生的角力
不過就是這混亂社會的縮影」

同意丫亮仔:「如果說小孩因為缺少愛而傷人,不能成為他侵犯他人合理化的藉口,那麼教師憑什麼合理化「侵犯他人」的事實?」

同意丫亮仔:「些教養小孩的大人在對小
孩進行體罰時,常說「我都是為你好的」,因此這些孩子無意識地就接收了「愛和被虐」是在
一起的。」

同意oskar:「片中的老師發飆,憤怒的打學生
是她恐懼失去主導權,恐懼失去對學生的操控力,恐懼失去他自己的威信...」

我認為這個張老師,她實在沒有當老師的「能力」,也許她過去當學生當的很「稱職」,但這種「稱職」,不過讓她以後變成思想狹隘的人。
2008-06-02 @ 15:57
迴響 from: 美鳥 [訪問者] · http://www.wretch.cc/blog/shihbird
比起身體上的懲罰,有時候言語上的刻薄惡毒更討厭啦!
2008-06-02 @ 16:00
迴響 from: abeatles [訪問者]
[老師跟警察這兩種人求人的時候都不會低頭]忘記在哪個電影上看到.
體罰是很難避免的吧,就算法律能規範肉體上的懲罰,也避免不了老師對學生自尊上的羞辱,偏偏小孩子是不容易記恨的,當一群人都遭受同樣的對待時,就會出現討論怎樣被打比較不會痛的討論,或是在私底下把老師罵臭罵爛,跟老師見面依然要說老師好的矛盾情況,因為有了同伴,舊可以選擇比較容易的方式去面對去習慣,想去挑戰權威質疑權威的人,要孤單的面對的痛苦跟孤單,比起跟一群同學默默承受要簡單的多.玩樂還比較重要呢.
就因為在學校做的任何事情都有很多同伴,這時出現有魅力的領導影響力就很大,造成的破壞或建設也會放大,帶頭的會領導同學集體反抗老師,看見會體罰的老師的弱點就是容易被激怒,反過來利用這一點,來打擊老師自己.
建設呢,有可能是去了解到大環境跟自己所扮演的腳色的情況,最好的方法就是努力的唸書用力的玩是對自己最好的,當發覺到老師也只是人而已,就不會有那嚜多的恐懼了.
偏偏破壞總是比建設容易.教學生們該如何去面對,跟如何保護自己,比一直強調禁止體罰會來的有效果吧.
不需要體罰的老師應該是很有個人魅力的自我控制情緒的能力也應該很強,不會在自己講到猴子時,承受不了聽眾預期外的反應,就開始羞愧害怕的的用憤怒去面對.照這個例子來看,當老師開始自大自以為時,就是會體罰的那種人,他們不是愛體罰,他們只是極度自大又同時極度自卑而已.
2008-06-02 @ 16:02
迴響 from: vita [訪問者]
我覺得大部分當老師的人,
都沒有當老師的能力,
把教育這種事,看得太單純了,
沒有意識到,這是一個多麼艱鉅危險的工作,
特別是小朋友以後的思想,是操縱在他們手上,
但這些老師,思想都不成熟了~~~

2008-06-02 @ 16:09
迴響 from: 小蔡 [訪問者]
現在的國中國小生,
看起來真的是白目得很,
可以看出現在老師,自己上課時,
學生不想上課的情況,
但是又沒有其他方式解決。

體罰學生?我覺得該有第三者去處理處罰的問題,
甚至讓學生在家中反省,以免影響其他學生的上課權益。
體罰學生只是讓自己更陷入危險的陷阱中。
第一線的老師直接體罰學生,很多人可是會眼睜睜著你出糗的。

以前我們被打,回去都要一副沒事的樣子,
不然家中那一頓,會比學校更慘,
現在?家張太寵了,
等著這一代他們20歲後,整個社會的改變吧!
2008-06-02 @ 16:12
迴響 from: 潛水夫 [訪問者]
”等著這一代他們20歲後,整個社會的改變吧!”

腦中浮現出九把刀筆下的那位”哈棒”。

恐佈喔~恐佈到了極點喔~
2008-06-02 @ 16:21
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
魁男塾的英文翻譯應該是「KE sPARTAN sCHOOL」

Ke的意思乃是科科也者,科科的斯巴達學校~~~

Lucifer
2008-06-02 @ 16:30
迴響 from: 艾魯 [訪問者]
體罰唷...
犯錯考差被打很正常,只是南部學校的傳統氣息似乎難以改變?

國小開始被打還要被羞辱,更好笑的是有一個號稱不打不罵學生的風箏(國小要學傳統風箏製作,骨架是要自己削的竹條)卻常常邊打罵怎麼這麼笨呀~XD
(話說他對女生就用超疼愛語氣)

國中則是有個只因為女學生拍畢業照戴無鏡片的眼鏡就被打到地上的女訓導主任,話說她還榮獲屏東縣的師愛獎~科科

不知道為什麼她也看我特不順眼?午休玩牌我參一腳被別班導師抓到,叫去問話時因為說了才剛玩就被抓她就說再多記一個大過(欺騙師長...棍~我一局都還沒玩玩勒),別人幫我證明才沒多這個。後來記過的原因應該是賭博吧(最好有錢賭)?
該位訓導主任揍人無數,只要是她認為看不下去的就可能直接開揍。

至於教務主任,在某次代課(軍訓)教結繩的時候,我承認他教的很簡單,但是他對做錯的同學居然直接巴臉...要不是我們拉住被巴的同學他大概要再度被扁了(這位聽說在我們入學前幾年畢業典禮後被蓋布袋,好像因為什麼原因少了一粒)。

被打應該是常態吧?只是國高中的經驗讓我對教師的不信任感非常重,因為教師好不好幾乎接觸一小段時間就知道了。

高中導師因為之前帶班發生問題被校長抓去喝咖啡以後,在我們入學第一天就放話說"不要以為學長姐說什麼有多好可以多混,我不會再有什麼婦人之仁。"
當時傻傻在週記上稍微關心一下是什麼情況,她不想說是自己的隱私(但是在課堂上"含蓄"的說有人想要侵犯隱私,那妳當初恐嚇個屁?),我又何必把我生活與我所想的寫給她看?
而高一不幸因為座號當上班代,因為週記不想寫太私人的事情,以及管理班上的情況普通(該做的都有做啦)所以卸任時小功變嘉獎還因為週記不佳被記個警告。
這位導師在我高中三年(她帶我一年級,高二分組後去帶女生班了)看到老師問好的時候沒回過我一次(高中不管是哪種老師我都會問好),不論是否在忙。

打這麼多...與其說體罰經驗不如說是我對教育者的失望與挫折吧?身為教職者對學生表明的不信任或許可以防衛自己不受騙不受傷,但學生怎麼想?

好老師當然有,但是不是很快就調走(國中理化老師、國文老師;高中應用文老師、歷史老師、公民老師)就是退休去了(國中體育老師)...(默
在校內有說話權利的還是那些一付我代表正義的那種老師...往往也是這類人如寄生蟲般賴在學校不走。

國中有上課帶酒味的體育老師、考卷發下來時鉛筆盒都沒拿就可以說我偷改選擇題答案的數學老師(97跟100的差別);高中有我半睡半醒間還可以聽到她一堂課口誤兩三次沒發現的國文老師、高一時的校長因為做的好(成績方面吧?),被抓去高雄(大搞輔導課荼毒該校師生)後換來一個農業縣的農專校長,第一次上報是因為酒駕被抓包...


......還是說些好的吧,不要搞的屏東好像沒有好老師一樣。

國中健康教育老師,嬌小的女性寫重點寫到差點腎臟出問題(麥克筆之類的用多很傷),教學認真易懂外永遠都是鼓勵性的用語(整堂課好乖、好聰明聽不完XD)。
對於許多學校不敢碰的性教育課程也如往常一樣清楚的講解上完。
國中的班級沒有在她的課出過什麼問題或是爭執,其他有幸被她教到的班級也一樣。

課堂中碰到上面提到的那位訓導主任傳訊班上同學時,她為了維護學生上課權益直接跟那位訓導主任槓上(直接說等下課再過去)。這是我唯一一次看到她嚴肅的面孔。

雖然她身材十分瘦小,但是在我眼中她最能作為教職的標榜,十分偉大。

高中化學老師,不斷的努力推起大家的學習力,雖然十分嚴格也受人尊敬。
對於專業課程十分嚴肅,但是說一些話家常的時候也很風趣(尤其是說到她女兒時XD)。
高一國文&三民主義老師,雖然發音不知什麼原因很奇妙但課堂講解認真,提到家中兩小鬼的事情常常讓全班笑到翻掉。雖然不是導師,但卻跟是我高一時跟班上關係最好的老師。
高中公民老師,最基本的民法概念是她帶給我的,上課方式歡樂到極點吐槽不斷,可是後來好像因為身體不太好又歡樂過頭所以帶完我們那屆後只能回家休息待產以防流產。囧
高一歷史老師,補充非常豐富,到現在我還記得講法國史的時候還提凡爾賽玫瑰(她高中時看的,可是為什麼我對那部卡通有印象0.0?),教到後來因為氣胸休養去了。

真是多彩多姿的校園生活呀~(茶
2008-06-02 @ 16:44
迴響 from: 黑黯叡智 [訪問者] · http://forum2.hkgolden.com
人老了
不代表精神年齡會隨之成長
2008-06-02 @ 17:16
迴響 from: 草人 [訪問者]
http://tw.news.yahoo.com/article/url/d/a/080601/17/10cy5.html

引用的youtube主角老師辭職後,學生還很爽,BLOG被塞爆。
2008-06-02 @ 17:54
迴響 from: 鄉民roger [訪問者]
李家同還是少講話
多放點心力在資工系吧

咦?他好像退休了?
2008-06-02 @ 19:31
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
俺,為人雞幫。

只贊成打家長,不贊成體罰。

(全文完)

(創下個人最簡短超認真憂國憂民回應紀錄)
2008-06-02 @ 19:44
迴響 from: 七色山羊 [訪問者]
體罰

我對體罰最深的印象是小學四年級
一次跟一個同學上課不知道做了什麼是事(忘了...好像拌嘴之類的)
老師要我們互打耳光,打到其中一個哭了為止

於是,全班不上課,就看著兩個男孩了互打耳光

我跟那位同學平常很要好,所以下手都很輕
互打了十幾分鐘後,那位同學突然開口,要我打大力一點

我了解他的意思,他不想打的太用力傷害我,又不想讓鬧劇一直演下去,所以如果我打大力一點,他哭了,處罰就結束了

最後兩個人還是不忍心下手,一直互打耳光到下課為止

等那個老師走了以後,我們兩個才哭出來,不是因為痛而哭

後來,再沒有見到那位老師用相同的方式處罰同學,可能是沒有達到他要的效果吧




2008-06-02 @ 21:14
迴響 from: AIRPRO [訪問者]
我只記得國中時老師拿藤條過度懲罰學生(違反比例原則那種)
隔天他就被扁了...被學生家長
臉上的"黑輪"一個星期了都還在
2008-06-02 @ 21:28
迴響 from: 台灣大哥二 [訪問者]
先說感想:
難怪那麼多人玩SM跟Sanking!是不是童年回憶太深刻了阿?!

再說我的看法:
行為規範的體罰我不反對,可是考試成績的體罰,我覺得沒必要。考很爛就是一種處罰了阿,體罰也不會讓學生學會課業吧。
另外,處罰的項目不該是打罵跟過度激烈的運動。

我從小是被打大的,爸爸就是國小老師,在學校一舉一動馬上就會被知道,所以不分在家在學校,一有過錯,老爸都很清楚,當然是要被打。
好不容易捱到了國中了,卻被送到以「嚴格」著名的私立學校,就是那種默寫錯一個字打一下的那種學校,三年好像沒啥少打過。打下來的結果是同學都很會作弊,呵呵。
高中繼續念同一個學校,幸好高中老師不打人,終於渡過了體罰的歲月。

在那個學校我大概破一個紀錄,打教官沒事,呵呵。那個教官本來就跟我不錯,他趁我在看佈告欄時要作弄我,抓我的腰,我沒回頭直接兩肘向後各給他一個拐子,他當場痛到趴…
2008-06-02 @ 21:43
迴響 from: 阿彭----畢業典禮到了,X的花店坑人----荷包大失血 [訪問者]
我念國中時
隔壁班
有一位傳說中的名師
他每天都出很多作業
每天早自修都考很多試
每天都很用力的打人

他的班上幾乎沒有沒考上第一志願的學生
所以他的班級年年都爆滿
就連現在他已經快60歲了
想退休都沒辦法退休
每年都受到家長和學校的慰留
------------------------------------------
我讓這位名師教了三年的國文
他真的很厲害,很會教,上課也很幽默
雖然打人很痛,藤條還有分等級的
從考得好到考得很差,總共有七支粗細長短不同的藤條
之前放暑假去找他
打人看起來還是很痛
寶刀未老
--------------------------
我覺得體罰還是有它的好處
2008-06-02 @ 23:10
迴響 from: childman [訪問者]
其實我對於體罰教育認為有必要性,但體罰教育需要人性化與體諒到小孩子的自尊心,畢竟人都希望被尊重。
從小,我也是被打到大,甚至到國中時,因為是男女分班,所以曾遇過一位級任老師,因為成績低於標準,所以被罰青蛙跳,但就是要從自己班跳到女生班(跳一輪),當然跳幾輪是依照分數離標準來決定,當時候也覺得超級丟臉,不過還是挺過來,也考上理想的高中...
到了高中,因為男女合班,老師通常都用言語溝通,曉以大義,當然因為有教官在,所以老師通常是不用出面來體罰的...
到了大學,才讓我知道,自我學習的重要性,教授通常都會有幾個學生在侍奉,當然好康(如研究所甄試等)都會輪到他們,所以同樣的考題,寫出來的答案一樣,但你的成績卻是跟人家不一樣,那要怪誰呢?(無奈)
而且教授層級越高者外務越多,幾乎都是來去如風,這就是我國的高等教育...
所以我比較喜歡國中小的老師,即便每天被藤條打或是青蛙跳,都是希望學生能夠好能夠成長...
但今天看到學生可以幹罵老師的,有時候會想是不是現在老師的韌性不夠,如同我大學修教育學程的同學...(好像我媽常說沒那個屁股就不要吃瀉藥)
只能說惡性循環啦...
2008-06-02 @ 23:25
迴響 from: SimonYu [訪問者]
我有個同學在國中任教,是個女生,結果被學生拿椅子撞斷肋骨,因為她太嘮叨。

我覺得凡事要balance來看,不能像有些人自以為是的就大放厥詞。體罰或許不對,但重點在教育的本質和師生權力的失衡。

時代不同了。
2008-06-02 @ 23:57
迴響 from: 神秘人 [訪問者]
當我讀高職的時候曾經因為老師講的一句話跟老師發生衝突,那時老師上課上到一個段落結束離下課還有五分鐘,就跟我們哈拉,說他對學生都是用愛的教育,當時他說了一句話來證明,我永遠記得這句話。

老師:我教書那麼久從來沒有打過學生。

當我聽到這句話時我非常不以為然,我心想我一定要說些什麼不然我會受不了,於是我就舉手說了一句讓我被記兩隻大過的話。

神秘人:我讀書那麼久也沒有打過老師。

我對這老師以沒打過學生為榮感到非常不屑,這不是身為一個老師的基本要求嗎,在我看來這就跟用活那麼久從來沒打過人來證明自己很和善是一樣的,都一樣非常似是而非。
2008-06-03 @ 00:46
迴響 from: 阿肥宅愛吃布丁 [訪問者]
小吱吱從小欠扁,到學校不乖乖上課專耍小手段對抗老師

說實在,這種小吱吱長大會多好也沒人會信,不然就是長大變大吱吱,一樣欠扁

我們肥宅從小乖乖沒事,長大看電腦有布丁就乖乖吃,有玩具就乖乖玩,心裡也沒啥憤恨不平...(小吱吱被打,宅宅偷喊爽)

啥,吱吱跑來宅窩吱吱叫阿,反正吱吱就只會吱吱叫,戰鬥力又超差,有本事,去變布丁出來阿^o^

朱大萬歲啦!!科科科科科科
2008-06-03 @ 01:04
迴響 from: cchien [訪問者] · http://blog.pixnet.net/cchien

那我也來講講以前被體罰的心得好了
話說十多年前我還是個白目國中生時(現在國中生前面一定要加白目兩字,所以我就先自婊了)
就讀於台北市一所非常知名的國中(非常靠近被拆掉的台北市立棒球場)
當時的校長是後來高升建國中學校長的....55熊(差點打成5566熊...)
在當年教育還是類似軍隊的「合理的管教是訓練,不合理的管教是磨練」的時代
我的班導從我國一入學時就實施類軍事化管理
以現在台灣教育體制來講,他應該早就被告上朝廷了
不過當年我們都覺得相當平常

打罵變成日常生活的一部份
就好像吃飯睡覺一樣

他一路帶我們到國三
我們也一路被他打到國三
不過至少表現好就可以免挨打
可是在課堂上看著其他同學挨教鞭其實心裡還是很害怕的~~~

那個國中的教室建構是呈現「日」字狀
印象中國一教室全在「_」處
國三教室在「﹣」處
二教室則上最上面的「﹉」處
而行政單位則都集中在右下介於國一和國三教室中間的「|」處的二樓
所以有時候降旗典禮在室內舉行時
國二學生就必須全部集合到行政單位對面
也就是左下方介於國一和國三教室中間的「|」處

國二時
我們班就經常這樣大老遠的帶隊走到那個地方去做降旗典禮
然後在那邊聽著枯燥的師長訓話
但由於天高皇帝遠的
而且我們又是在最角落處
所以有些站在後面的同學就會講話搞怪

可是我們所處的位置的後方有樓梯
有一次55熊就偷偷從那個樓梯上來到我們後面
當場三個集會時正在講話的同學就被抓包了
當然這件事讓班導知道後
他大發雷霆
先叫我們全班用蛙跳的方式跳到外面操場
然後再跳回學笑的禮堂(就在行政單位的下方一樓)
然後全班面對中學校中庭大喊:

「我們以後集會時不會講話」
「我們以後集會時不會講話」
「我們以後集會時不會講話」
「我們以後集會時不會講話」
「我們以後集會時不會講話」

中庭是個封閉式的結構
所以這些話就迴繞在中庭中
一堆其他班上的學生都跑出來看熱鬧
由於太受屈辱
一些同學開始哭
然後其他人也被感染到一邊哭一邊喊

之後班導又狂吼要我們蛙跳回教室
路途中經過一些其他班級都引起圍觀
我們就類似在眾鄉民圍觀的情況下很恥辱的跳回教室
然後那些被55熊抓包的同學被叫出來拱著
班導接著拿掃把狂打那些人的屁股
打到掃把的柄都開散了
用力之猛我都不敢看下去

當然事後沒有家長投訴
也沒有學生投訴
班導還是安安穩穩地帶我們到國三畢業
很奇怪的是
雖然其他同學是因為連坐法的關係一併被拖下水處分
可是卻沒有人因此而憎恨那些被55熊抓包的學生
被打後隔天大家還是跟以前一樣
沒有特別排擠他們
只能說當年大家有著共患難的精神
所以都很互挺啊!
如果換成現在.....

校長大概被媒體圍到死
老師大概被家長告到慘
人苯大概跳出來罵到翻
被抓包的同學大概被排擠到轉學....

最後,我不評論當年班導的作法是不是正確
至少在當年,我們都覺得很平常,沒啥大驚小怪的
到現在,也沒看到大家在那個體罰制度底下有出現什麼心裡不正常的情況
所以我不曉得那些對體罰很picky的人或團體到底是在緊張個什麼?
基本上我認為現在小朋友抗壓力不足
那些什麼人苯或教改團體要負上一部份的責任!

講完了~
我不奢望得到什麼朱大的什麼獎
但相信跟我年紀相仿的朱大應該和我一樣歷經過相似的校園體罰事件
現在,這些都變成了回憶
也並不全然是不好的
反而讓我們的成長過程中增添許多色彩

順便就是我想把這篇轉到我的blog
跟朱大報備一下~

2008-06-03 @ 02:07
迴響 from: 路人乙 [訪問者]
應該不是老師難為,而是教育難
包括老師的養成教育都很難
教育就是哲學,可惜現代社會哲學式微
因為科學有效率、帶來財富,所以教育也都是科學導向
這其實是完全錯誤的方向,可是沒辦法,已經是既定的事實了
又能怎麼辦呢?科科
不知道這裡有沒有讀過哲學的宅男們
2008-06-03 @ 03:21
迴響 from: vita [訪問者]
>當場三個集會時正在講話的同學就被抓包了~~~然後那些被55熊抓包的同學被叫出來拱著班導接著拿掃把狂打那些人的屁股打到掃把的柄都開散了用力之猛我都不敢看下去>~~~>最後,我不評論當年班導的作法是不是正確>~~~>反而讓我們的成長過程中增添許多色彩>
這沒有什麼不能評論的,先生不想評論,覺得這在當時是很平常的事,不代表這件事沒有對錯,一件事在過去被當成是個慣例,不代表現在也應被視為理所當然,先生覺得這添許多色彩,不代表沒有人感覺慘無人道深感恐懼。

我的評論是我想不明白,把學生訓練成一板一眼,絕對服從的人到底對學生有什麼好處。因為這樣的學生以後對逢迎拍馬比較容易上手,前途也會比較光明是不是??
一個不合理的體制必會受到挑戰的,只是這期間也必有人會犧牲,但變革會使其越來越好。

>到現在,也沒看到大家在那個體罰制度底下有出現什麼心裡不正常的情況>
我從你過去的留言感覺你是個對現況也對自身感到自豪的人,但我覺得你不能因為現在的生活或成就令你很滿意,你和你同學過去那些經歷,就可自動升級為使成長更添色彩的經歷,然後很理所當然老成地認為這些事過去一向如此,沒有討論對錯的必要,現在有人挑它就搖頭嘆息。如果你不能撇開自身的情感和包袱,細微地感受人性的脆弱,理性檢視事情的對錯,那我認為你心理不見得是正常的。

請指教批評!謝謝
2008-06-03 @ 05:02
迴響 from: cchien [訪問者] · http://blog.pixnet.net/cchien
To vita,

沒什麼好指教批評的
每個人的成長都有不同的過程和背景
相對的在不同的時空背景下自然會延伸出許多後來難以想像的事情
所以我只是分享當年的經驗

我不做過度評論是因為我懶得評論
畢竟事情過了十幾年
而老師也順利讓我完成升學階段中最重要的事情
以結果論來講我是感謝他的

但你幫我過度評論我的感想
並且揣測我「是個對現況也對自身感到自豪的人」
然後後面的一連串
我只能說你幻想太多
2008-06-03 @ 08:36
迴響 from: PP [訪問者]
pipeline+最後一屆六年畢業的話
214/(33-6)=7.9
是平均一年出產不到8個博士
三所學校一所一屆2~3個博士生
2008-06-03 @ 09:03
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
不過博士生導師一屆要帶六年~~~所以說李家同就是行!

Lucifer
2008-06-03 @ 09:07
沒什麼好指教批評的
每個人的成長都有不同的過程和背景
相對的在不同的時空背景下自然會延伸出許多後來難以想像的事情
所以我只是分享當年的經驗


完全同意+1

有些事情,經過了十年二十年再回頭去看,根本就不算是啥事,
像小時候頑劣被我娘痛扁,
國中住校熄燈就寢後惡搞起鬨,
晚上十點多和十幾個同學被舍監抓苞,
罰伏地挺身,被狂抽藤條,被罰倒立,
(幹,隔不了十天半個月之後,大家還是繼續惡搞…XD)
後來畢業時大家還不是排隊向舍監大聲說謝謝,
也沒聽說當年和我們一起被打到無法坐椅子的同學有那條神經不對了?
反而讓我們這一群國中同學一直到現在還保持著情誼,
到現在為止,只要一人有事,大家就一起幫忙。

只能說現在社會變了,
小朋友的挫折忍受度變低了很多…
2008-06-03 @ 09:17
迴響 from: chuck [訪問者]
感謝恐龍幫我貼圖..不過我本來是要惡搞那張圖的...
發現不能貼圖就沒繼續改下去....啊~~~
2008-06-03 @ 09:29
迴響 from: 李杯是王道 [訪問者]

家同叔又中槍了,出現的次數還真多....

李杯杯都快變成本部落格吉祥物了....(茶)

2008-06-03 @ 10:46
迴響 from: LKK [訪問者]
to cchien 55熊聘用退伍待業兒子在學校當助理幹事案 依利益衝突迴避法規定被罰100萬元 真不知道給學生做什麼榜樣 張老師就只是入錯行而已, 如果她去當立法委員-----一直罵一直罵都是愛台灣啦 如果她去當馴獸師-------越打越成器 如果她去當監獄管理員---法定職權就包括管教,何況現在都是吸毒犯,打了也不會反彈 ..... 趕快轉行 人生多美滿~ 我國小國中也是一路被打 也沒怎樣恨 就認命嘛 可是上次母校百年慶 那個照三餐打的老師來募款時 我居然向他說「照以前這樣給我打一下我就捐錢」 頭髮花白的老師默默就走了 讓我反省了好幾天 所以別以為體罰沒留什麼下來 蔵在深層還是有創傷 看了大家的經驗 就只有一個感覺 好痛
2008-06-03 @ 13:43
迴響 from: 埔里在地 [訪問者]
李家同終於要走了,真好!
去問埔里當地人對他的觀感,只能用落跑校長來形容。
九二一地震時全省各校的大學生都自願進來救災,
我還遇到日本來的大學生(英文發音實在能懂,所以只能用漢字溝通),
啊李校長人咧?
2008-06-03 @ 14:06
迴響 from: 賈不妙 [訪問者]
李家同這種腐儒趕快退一退
2008-06-03 @ 14:34
迴響 from: 礙祕力 [訪問者]
的確是有的老師會打的太over、太誇張
於是有了不少反體罰的機制
但我不得不說
反體罰的人或許有他的觀點
但我非常無敵反對

我在六年級之前讀的都是市區的小學
小孩們真的都算乖
沒什麼人敢反抗老師
犯的錯也都是小小錯(ex:沒帶作業等)
的確有些例外,但是真的算少

然後呢?六年級時我轉學到較郊區的小學
學生個個流氓樣,整天都有誰打誰誰又打誰的事發生
個個都在比誰嗆、誰靠山大
不是我要說,我剛轉去真的嚇到了
平平都在台北縣,為什麼差距這麼大?
接著上國中,由於通常上同一個國小的,機乎都會上同一個國中
更是變本加厲!!
開始上課胡鬧、開始在上課嗆老師亦或是在教室打起來
老師到底要怎麼管理學生?
記過對於那些學生,他們根本不痛不癢
通知家長?還不是一樣的結果,絲毫沒變
體罰,的確是唯一讓他們會比較收斂的一個懲罰
但你說老師他們真的愛體罰嗎?
拜託~他們也怕學生來打他好嗎?

這是個仍需管教小孩的年代
反體罰的家長、委員甚至官員們?
是不是要體諒學生的素質再去推斷那些體罰老師的想法?
李家同呀~你沒有功勞也有苦勞
但是為什麼做事情,沒有用各種角度去觀看呢?
看事情的觀點是不是要寬廣一點呢?



說完了!!送我書~(伸)


2008-06-03 @ 15:18
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
抽獎活動預計今晚八點結束,由我助理手工抽出有誠意有幸運的發文三篇嚕~~~

Lucifer
2008-06-03 @ 15:21
迴響 from: 冰糖 [訪問者]
首先,我反對體罰。

乾~~~開宗明義破題法,要鞭就來吧!冰糖沒在怕過的,我就是仗著朱大那一句「雖然他不同意我的論點,但是會誓死捍衛我的言論自由」。

我知道,體罰是有用處的,而且立竿見影,不只對人,對畜生甚至對阿宅都是有用處的。

但是我們有語言可以溝通彼此想法,

可以討論,可以思考,可以反省。

但也因為我們的多元性(興趣、智商、臉皮後度、心肝黑度…等等)

造成統一的教育方式在幾千年來格格不入。

我們先想一想以前的體罰為啥可行,
1.社會容許
2.家長容許(甚至還有棒下出孝子的……….)
3.老師也把體罰當作是手段

在這三點之下,毫無任何資源的學生要怎麼反抗這種待遇(幹,那時候如果嗆說「我回去叫我老爸告老師」,可能在家先被老爸扁一頓,隔天在帶來老師的面前繼續扁……..)。

但是,問題來了,在教育上真的要走到體罰這一條路嗎?拳頭大,權力大,資
源多就可以扁一個犯錯的學生嗎?

如果老師在路上開車交通違規,條子把老師抓下來體罰?(因為之前有教過,然後又犯錯,所以體罰?)條子說「不好好開車,我就去監理站註銷你的路權,你以後不必來這條路開車了。」

老師在倒垃圾時,沒做好垃圾分類,所以被清潔隊阿伯抓下來體罰?(因為之前政府有宣導過,然後又犯錯,所以體罰?)清潔隊阿伯說「不好好垃圾分類,我就去環保署註銷你倒垃圾,你以後不必倒垃圾了。」

我們人類的社會是這樣運作的嗎?

如果別的事件或環境不是這樣運作,那為啥教育是這樣運作的,給我一個回答阿(搖晃…….)

我一直認為,還有別的方式可以去「教育」或者「糾正」一個學生。就不要用「體罰」的方式搞學生。

我們台灣的法律對待犯了錯的人也是關進去剝奪自由就算了……嚴重一點關到死或者是槍決,有看到到哪一條法律規定說「偷竊,廷杖20。殺人,廷杖小GG到死」的。那老師的行為為何可以凌駕於法律之上而傷害學生青春的肉體。(死阿宅,別看到「青春的肉體」幾個字就想歪)

今天先寫到這,等吃完飯拎杯繼續靠杯~~~~~~~~
2008-06-03 @ 18:08
迴響 from: 阿肥宅愛吃布丁 [訪問者]
大家都看到老師體罰吱吱

可是

大家有看到那些吱吱下課體罰無辜可愛可憐的宅宅嗎XDXDXD

當然宅宅沒有還手的能力,但是看到老師扁吱吱的時候,只能說:爽啊啊啊啊啊啊

同學體罰同學不算體罰@@||

註:阿宅看到體罰這檔事就會自動閃開了,當然體罰這種事對正常人來說有非常好的效果。但是吱吱們天生就反骨愛吱吱,不要說吱吱也是宅宅,沒這種事,這是兩條平行線,吱吱不可能是宅宅的,科科科科科,請繼續資...
2008-06-03 @ 18:38
迴響 from: vita [訪問者]
TO simon先生:
>有些事情,經過了十年二十年再回頭去看,根本就不算是啥事>
反正再過十年二十年,現在的事也會不重要了,所以不管現在生活是不是慘澹,反正十年二十年後,回頭看這些事都是很輕鬆的,所以也不需要去爭論什麼,逆來順受就對了!

>後來畢業時大家還不是排隊向舍監大聲說謝謝,也沒聽說當年和我們一起被打到無法坐椅子的同學有那條神經不對了?反而讓我們這一群國中同學一直到現在還保持著情誼,到現在為止,只要一人有事,大家就一起幫忙。>
我認為先生上面的論述,並不能推導到---「>罰伏地挺身,被狂抽藤條,被罰倒立>是正確的」這個結論。

>只能說現在社會變了,小朋友的挫折忍受度變低了很多…>
小朋友的挫折忍受度變低了很多,我也不知道該怎麼推導成「體罰是合理的」這個結論,也不知該怎麼推導,「有了體罰,小朋友的挫折忍受度會變高」這個結論。

還是請simon先生指教批評。謝謝。
2008-06-03 @ 19:39
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
vita:

  俺再認真個0.4%回應你(們)這些心理充滿愛的理想主義者,
(感覺真是差...彷彿在跟年幼無知時的自己對話)

  妳去當個幾年的老師吧...如果你還能堅守原來的理想性,不與現實妥協(對不起,這種人俺活到現在只知道兩位,倒楣的是俺認識很多前線老師。)

  這不是嗆聲,你只要有些歷練很快就會弄懂為什麼人本什麼洨基什麼會為什麼被人家稱讚為雞叫集團(那個人家就俺),不過俺絕對支持你們變成兼愛天下,提昌孩子有無知權利的好老師。

  (個人還是認為把家長打爆比打他的小孩有用)
2008-06-03 @ 19:56
迴響 from: vita [訪問者]
to cchien先生:
我為我無禮的過度評論和無禮的措辭道歉~~對不起!!!我本不該輕易去推論一個人!

>我不做過度評論是因為我懶得評論,畢竟事情過了十幾年,而老師也順利讓我完成升學階段中最重要的事情,以結果論來講我是感謝他的>
我並沒有要求先生評論,但我還是認為這件是能評論也該評論的,而誰都可來評論。先生認為結果論來講先生是感謝他的,但有那個人能證明,結果應該是要大於過程的,只要結果好,什麼亂七八糟的過程都可被合理化,人活著不是為了等結果。

>每個人的成長都有不同的過程和背景,相對的在不同的時空背景下自然會延伸出許多後來難以想像的事情,所以我只是分享當年的經驗>
既然先生了解每個人有每個人的背景,那為何能容忍專制的思想,不管教育變革現在造成什麼現象,都不會因此表示過去體制的專制蠻橫是正確的。我還是希望,因為這個變革的過程造成許多老師和學生犧牲之後,這個體制不斷受衝擊不斷改善因此越來越好。

再次為我對先生的過份評論道歉。
還是請cchien先生指教批評!謝謝。
2008-06-03 @ 19:56
迴響 from: vita [訪問者]
to目白兄:
(好幾天沒跟目白兄講話!!!)
我不是心裡充滿愛的理想主義者啊!!!
我也不會兼愛天下,提倡孩子有無知權利。
我也沒什麼理想性也。
我不過是個自私的人說~~~

只是我認為老師那種至高無上的心態,一切推為「都是為學生好」的思想該被推翻了,
這句話可信度很低很薄弱啊
就是這句話讓過去老師的所作所為可以無限上綱的合理化。
我最討厭看老師在記者面前說這句話,校長在記者面前說這句話~~
媽的,一個老師都沒有承擔、誠實的勇氣,
配教學生嗎,不會覺得心虛嗎!
我真不知這些老師怎麼面對學生
人本再差,至少它是一個讓體制檢討的力量。
反正就相互檢討囉!!!
不管如何,我還是想重申「不管教育變革現在造成什麼現象,都不會因此表示過去體制的專制蠻橫是正確的」。

目白兄,你怎麼可以用「心理充滿愛的理想主義者」這種話來鄙視我!!!
2008-06-03 @ 20:24
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
  那可不是鄙視阿...俺可超佩服生在台灣這種環境還能化理想為現實的能人。

  有道是:如果全世界的阿宅都能和朱學恒一樣,那朱學恒就是屁!
  (不好意思拿宅神的名號消費一下,聽起來比較威。)

  思辯詮釋用於說服,人生大道理套在別人身上好用,天經地義,
真的當個幾年老師,你會懂。

  有些作為,哪來的善惡是非問題,技術操作啦!沒事好老師,搞砸你白痴...
2008-06-03 @ 20:48
迴響 from: 窮光蛋 [訪問者]
我是不贊成體罰的
真正頑劣的, 暴力傾向的, 根本不是體罰可以解決的
應該交給更專業的: 少年感化院
2008-06-03 @ 21:22
迴響 from: 丫亮仔 [訪問者]
那個,再來貼幾張舊筆記:

關於孩子抗壓性問題,我認為父母要負起很大的責任。允許孩子在成長過程有試誤的機會,其實是很重要的。

以臺灣為例,近年所謂「草莓族」、「水蜜桃」之類的名詞,被加諸在6、7年級生上,以比喻新生代的年輕人抗壓性太低。但反觀教育現場,許多父母從小就灌輸小孩:「萬般皆下品,唯有讀書高」的觀念,對於孩子的要求與認同都建築在課業上,孩子從小就受到百般照顧與保護,除了追求學業成就外,生命經驗是被架空的。我曾在網路流傳甚廣的一篇文章「小學老師出的怪作業」上發現:現代父母的周全正一點一滴剝奪孩子的能力。該篇文章的作者是個小學學童的母親,以輕鬆幽默的筆調書寫小學教師所出的各式各樣千奇百怪的家庭作業或課堂需要的道具,與現代父母如何神通廣大地「幫」孩子解決難題的驚險過程。看完全文,我只感覺到隱約的為這些父母的孩子感到擔憂。當父母們沾沾自喜於自己神通廣大能力高強,能夠幫孩子解決課業問題、準備好孩子上課要用的道具時,卻忽略了培養孩子責任心的訓練與解決問題的能力,同時也造成孩子心理上的依賴。而我想情意教育的進行,父母師長的角色實在是關鍵。
2008-06-03 @ 21:55
迴響 from: 丫亮仔 [訪問者]
關於人本,我也曾親自接觸,有一些小小的觀察:

體制外學校最大的問題是尚未發展出明確的技術層面的理論,但其教育理念如:尊重每一個孩子、適性引導的教育……等,是否能發展出明確的教學技術理論,我也深深保留。因為,孩子的個別性太強,教育所面臨的情境又相當多變性,執守在特定當下所發展的方式,是危險的。而許多理想一但變成制度,就容易僵化而失去其立意精神了,這也是約十年前我接觸「人本」之後的想法。

當時,每一個活動員約帶五-六個小朋友,同時被交待在五天的活動中幫每一個孩子拍照記錄,並且每天對每一個孩子記錄一張讚美紙條。活動結束後,活動員要幫每一個小朋友完成一本記錄手冊,紀念這一次的森林育。我當時的感覺是很新鮮有趣,而這全新的經驗對我整個教育的理念也有很深的「改革」。但是,我帶的第二梯的孩子,很高比例是經常參加人本舉辦的教育營,他們對於活動的進行已經相當熟悉,被讚美的喜悅並不像第一次接觸的孩子一樣深刻,最讓我感到難受的是,活動結束沒多久,許多家長就致電人本的辦事中心,要活動員們儘快完成每一個孩子的記錄手冊。在我認定中,那是我對小朋友們的心意,在家長和小朋友的心中卻變成參加森林育活動理所當然要得到的「禮物」。而這流於形式的許多,就我自己的感覺,早已背離真誠的出發點。雖然到現在對於人本的某些理想,我仍是贊成。

2008-06-03 @ 21:58
迴響 from: 丫亮仔 [訪問者]
另外,對於第一線的教師,真的希望能有更多的支援:

美國有「學校心理學家」制度,專門負責第一線教師的心理照護,這個制度是否可能在台灣的中小學教育體制中成立?無可諱言,第一線教師的工作量實在很大,在面對五花八門的學生時,承受的身心壓力都不是外人可以想像的。加上,近幾年外界將教改的成敗關鍵,都加諸其上,如果沒有一個適當的輔導機制當前線教師的後盾,教師們求救無門,很容易就會經驗教學的耗竭感。讓教師們得到支持,不再有孤軍奮戰的感覺,我想,是當前教育體制必須投資的。只有身心健康樂在教育的教師,才能教育出健全人格的下一代。

2008-06-03 @ 22:02
迴響 from: 李目白 [訪問者]
阿亮仔.

  有興趣可以了解一下,當前的台灣職場(包含公務員)30歲上下技職體系出身的員工VS同年紀大學(或碩士)員工從事過幾份工作。
  如果有機緣能和這些人聊一聊就更棒了~妳對人生(或教育)會有更多看法,也許也會重新認識這個部落格的期許在哪裡。

  (俺的結論就不講了。)
2008-06-03 @ 22:06
迴響 from: childman [訪問者]
如果有機緣能和這些人聊一聊就更棒了~妳對人生(或教育)會有更多看法,也許也會重新認識這個部落格的期許在哪裡。+1
2008-06-03 @ 22:31
迴響 from: Chi兒 [訪問者]

我接觸過最小的小霸王是幼稚園大班,當時的我很難想像為什麼一個這麼小的小孩子可以壞成這樣,實習的最後幾天我們終於鼓起勇氣去詢問這一位在我們眼中幾乎不管事情的老師,他說他已經放棄了...

他放棄了這個孩子

許許多多的孩子不良行為,都在家長的默許下進行,包括偷竊,打同學
家長都和老師說他相信自己的孩子不可能做出這種事情,應該是提出問題的老師才有問題

對於這種孩子,體罰有用嗎????
頂多讓他心中堆滿更多恨

老實說 我後來很認同老師的心態和做法
對於很多我們無力的孩子,無力的來源是家長
最後是放棄...

所以我的報告上就很老實的說出我的想法
根本沒進過現場的教授給了我一個空前絕後的低分
我很沮喪,我覺得我很認真
只是這些小孩實在是已經撲滅我的熱誠

理想化的教授,秉持著教育的熱誠,如李家同一般
在我結束這樣失落的實習後,不留情的補了我一刀

理想和現實間的差距
如果我可以不進現場,可以不了解現實的痛苦
只要在課堂上說說我滿腔的理想
教育應該怎麼樣怎麼樣

那太好了 我永遠都不想去了解理想與現實的差距

體罰,
我不想碰別人,也不想別人碰我
所以我拒絕體罰
體罰只是變相增強體罰的人的心態

而且在很多問題中 體罰不是什麼重點

如果可以有一個願望,我希望小孩不要什麼都無所謂
我也不要只能對這些無所謂感到無所謂





2008-06-04 @ 02:26
迴響 from: Chi兒 [訪問者]
看這個部落閣
第一次讓我覺得心情很差...哭哭
2008-06-04 @ 02:32
迴響 from: 丫亮仔 [訪問者]
謝謝目白兄,如果有機會的話:)

看到自己的侷限,的確經常感到某種施力點的困惑呢。(嘆)



2008-06-04 @ 08:26
迴響 from: 冰糖 [訪問者]
推白目李大大這一句

(個人還是認為把家長打爆比打他的小孩有用)

先體罰家長拉......
2008-06-04 @ 09:31
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
丫亮仔 [訪問者] 、oskar、cchien [訪問者]

我助理說選出這三位送書,他會記信給各位!如果週五以前沒收到信請跟我反應謝謝~~~

Lucifer
2008-06-04 @ 23:50
迴響 from: frankego [訪問者]
如果連自己親身嚐受過的羞辱與不堪都可以漠視
那我不會訝異有人可以漠視社會上教育上所發生的慘劇
一群人受到羞辱之後的眼淚難道都只是逢場作戲 被氣氛感染而流嘛?
這種價值觀也太委屈了吧





2008-06-05 @ 01:46
迴響 from: 丫亮仔 [訪問者]
那個,感謝大會厚愛!
(嗚!本人抽獎從來沒中過。。。。。)

不過之前都說過要棄權啦!不能食言呀。

把機會讓給下一個分享者唄~~~~~~

(是說,來買張刮刮卡好了:p)

2008-06-05 @ 10:05
迴響 from: oskar---抽中書了感謝各位 [訪問者]
先感謝助理小姐,百忙之中還要麻煩你

--------------------------------
迴響來自: Chi兒 [訪問者]

所以我的報告上就很老實的說出我的想法
根本沒進過現場的教授給了我一個空前絕後的低分
我很沮喪,我覺得我很認真
只是這些小孩實在是已經撲滅我的熱誠

理想化的教授,秉持著教育的熱誠,如李家同一般
在我結束這樣失落的實習後,不留情的補了我一刀

理想和現實間的差距
如果我可以不進現場,可以不了解現實的痛苦
只要在課堂上說說我滿腔的理想
教育應該怎麼樣怎麼樣

那太好了 我永遠都不想去了解理想與現實的差距
--------------------------------------

我覺得孔子家語的這段故事也許您可以看看(摘自http://skt95.blog.163.com/blog/static/2012001820079278331939/)

魯哀公六年(西元前489年),吳國聯合其屬國大舉進攻當時與楚結盟的陳國,楚國出兵救陳把軍隊攔截在城父一帶。戰火迫近陳都,陳國一片混亂,孔子為了避開戰亂,離開陳國,他們一行來至陳蔡交界的地帶。據《史記•孔子世家》記載:楚王聽說孔子一行在陳、蔡之間,便派人去騁孔子。孔子打算前去拜見楚王。消息傳到陳蔡兩國,兩國的大夫紛紛為各自的國君出主意說:“孔子是位賢能的人,他所批評指責的都切中諸侯的弊端。如今他已久留于陳、蔡之間,我們這些大夫所執行政令都不合孔子之意;楚國是個大國,來請孔子;孔子如果為楚任用;那麼我們這些在陳、蔡執政的大夫就危險了。”於是兩國都派出一些武士,將孔子一行包圍于陳、蔡之間的曠野上,使他們進不得行,退而無路,困在那裡。師徒們被困多日,糧食斷絕,跟隨的弟子們都餓病了,爬不起來。這是孔子一生中最大的危難,六十三歲的老人,他生命的維持已受到威脅。他們不得不以野菜充饑,由於饑餓,大家的面色都十分難看,黃中帶綠,難怪後人說,孔子在陳絕糧,面有菜色。

面對絕糧的困境,孔子卻能泰然處之,還照常給弟子們講學,照舊彈琴、唱歌。他有著屈於身而不屈其道的精神,所以任百折而不以為虧,朝聞道,夕死而不足惜( 4.8子曰:“朝聞道,夕死可矣。”),這樣一種為事業,為信仰而獻身的精神,不知鼓舞了歷史上多少位傑出的中國人。

子路有些沉不住氣了。他很不高興地來見孔子,說道:“君子也有窮途末路,無可奈何的時候嗎?”孔子說:“君子也有困厄的時候,但是能堅持操守;小人一遇難處,便無所不為了。”( 15.2在陳絕糧。從者病,莫能興。子路慍見曰:“君子亦有窮乎? ”子曰:“君子固窮;小人窮斯濫矣。”)

弟子們越來越不安了。子貢臉色改變,有不滿之意。孔子對他說:“你是否認為我是一個博學多聞的人?”子貢不作聲,孔子接著說:“不是的。我所主張的宗旨是貫串始終而不改變的。”孔子知道弟子們有些氣惱、埋怨的情緒,便把子路叫到跟前,問道:“古詩上說:
不是老虎,不是野牛,
徘徊曠野,是何緣由。

難道是我的主張不對嗎?不然我們因何困在這兒呢?”子路說:“恐怕是我們的仁德不夠,陳蔡之人才不相信我們。人家不讓我們通行而圍困我們,恐怕是我們不夠聰明,不願變通的緣故。”孔子叫著子路的名字說。“由啊!有這樣的道理嗎!(指子路的推理)假如有仁德就會使人相信,為什麼伯夷、叔齊會餓死?假如有智慧就肯定行得通,為什麼比干的心會被人剜掉呢?”

子路退出,子貢進見孔子。孔子又問道:“賜(子貢的名字),古詩說:
不是老虎,不是野牛,
徘徊野外,是何緣由?

難道是我的主張不對嗎,否則我們為什麼困在這兒呢?”子貢回答說:“老師的理想十分遠大,所以中原各國當權者沒有人能夠接受,老師是不是可以稍稍遷就一些。”孔子說:“賜呵,好的農夫能夠認真耕種,但不一定有好的收成;一個想有所作為的人有他自己的主張。他能夠有條有理地公諸世人,但是人家不一定就能接受。你現在不努力修養自己,追求大道,卻想如何讓人接受,賜啊!你的志向未免過於淺近了吧。”
子貢退出,顏淵進來見孔子。孔子依舊問道:“回啊(顏淵名回字子淵),古詩上說:
不是老虎,不是野牛,
徘徊野外,是何緣由。

是不是我的主張不對,否則我們為何困在這兒呢?”顏淵說:“老師的理想極為高大,所以天下各處沒有人能夠接受。雖然如此,老師還是可以努力爭取實現這種理想的。人家不能相容,有什麼值得遺憾的,不能相容,才能反襯出君子的道德和學問的高尚。如果拿不出好的主張來,這是我們的恥辱。如果有了治世的良策,而各國諸侯不能任用我們去實行,這是國家的掌權者的羞恥。人家不能相容,有何遺憾!不能相容之後才顯出君子人格的高尚!”孔子聽了顏淵的一番慷慨之言,高興得笑起來,說道:“就是這個話啊。顏家的小夥子,假使你有了財富,我作你的管帳先生。”

此時此地,孔子的話當然是為了安慰弟子們,但卻是發自肺腑,絕非自我解嘲,從與三個弟子的談話中,可以看出孔子抱定目標,固守主張而不想權變。而子路、子貢則傾向於審時度勢,隨世間之浪潮而有低有昂。孔子晚年,這正是孔子與部分弟子的不同的地方,也是他們之間常有意見分歧的根源。孔子向來是位執著追求者,所以當時人們說他“知其不可而為之。”( 14.34子路宿于石門。晨門曰:“奚自?”子路曰:“自孔氏。”曰:“是知其不可而為之者與?”)意思是:明明知道辦不到,卻偏要那麼幹。
-------------------------------------------------------------------

有機會在分享心得
2008-06-06 @ 17:46
迴響 from: oskar---抽中書了感謝各位 [訪問者]
補充一下

也許他捅你一刀,是因為看到你已經放棄
如果一股新血進入,還沒有學會該學的技能
就已經先學會輕易放棄,也許她是對那樣的你感到失望
(不過也許他沒有我想得那麼複雜啦)
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