朱恐龍
朱恐龍

可以不要這麼崇拜武斷的權威嗎?送給崛起的武斷權威錢致榕~~~~ (85550 views)
     

好啦。有一個不知道為什麼專業是高能物理,卻被請回台灣來對許多事件發表其精闢看法的錢致榕最近又上報了。

其實這個錢致榕在本單位上次長達二十五分鐘的PODCAST中就已經特別分析過這位教授。

還有他可以擔任台灣人文研究中心講座教授的神妙威能。

可惜該篇文章我懶得寫出來,用錄音的方式感覺並沒有很多人看到。

http://blogs.myoops.org/lucifer.php/2009/09/06/podcast4

但我還是要特別推薦這篇PODCAST,特別是底下的討論

庭上,我在此提出對政治大學講座教授錢致榕公開演講指控台灣學生一案提出異議!

請容我引述該員公開報導之發言:

錢致榕不諱言,在哈佛、約翰霍普金斯等美國一流大學,不會如此,「學生聽講都來不及,怎麼有時間在課堂上啃雞腿?」美國的學校不准學生帶食物進入教室,因為「教室是知識的殿堂」

庭上,本席認為這種外國的學校都是完美的學校,外國的學生拉的大便都是香的言論也不是第一次聽到。

但是,庭上,既然錢致榕敢說的這麼武斷,本席只要找到一個反例,錢致榕的發言就與事實相違背!

http://www.canyu.org/n11056c10.aspx

庭上,美國哈佛大學歷史及東亞語言博士王丹在其Facebook上表示他上課的時候都會帶咖啡去喝。

本案退庭!

喔,蛤?

庭上你說這樣太快了一點,感覺不是很精彩?

曾在喬治亞大學任教的Cynthia Hynd-Shanahan教授,在她的Learning from text across conceptual domains一書中提到了:

「雖然上課時吃東西在本校是技術上禁止的,但我們發現有時允許學生吃點小零食並不會妨礙上課,反而讓流程更順暢。」

庭上,本席再度出示2009年9月4日的史丹佛大學的校園報導:

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2009/august31/food-politics-class-090409.html

史丹佛大學政治系教授Rob Reich所開設的食物與政治課程讓學生從準備菜餚、烹飪、上課中邊吃邊討論中體會食糧的生產、運送,以及對政治的影響。

庭上,請不要只注意看那個穿白衣服的正妹,把注意力回到本席這邊來。

另外,庭上,請容許本席再提出普渡大學(Purdue)的學生報紙的一份投書

http://www.pucchronicle.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticle&ustory_id=7a5e3bf3-5523-4ae9-862d-8da8f8b899f6

作者Katie Ramsey表示應該要容許辛苦趕課的學生在課堂上吃點不干擾人的小零嘴,免得血糖過低反而不能集中精神上課。最後一段則寫著「
Big thanks to those selected professors who are not bothered by snacking students. Thank you for being understanding.」(極為感謝那些少數容許學生上課吃零嘴的教授,感謝你們的體諒。

庭上,這是另外來自2008年7月20號的波士頓環球報的報導:

http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2008/07/20/manners_missing_in_the_classroom/?page=1

作者Bella English表示:她在波士頓地區的某兩所大學任教,學生都很聰明,但在教室裡的教養則不負責任:從吃東西到講手機和收Email都有。

我們並不知道某兩所大學是哪兩所,但顯然課堂上吃東西之類的表現並非是台灣特產,並不會有旅行團特別來到台灣觀賞大學生在教室裡面吃飯這種奇觀。

同樣的,庭上,請容本席再出示另一份哈佛的報導。

這是哈佛學生報導Crimson在1997年的報導:

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1997/9/19/the-eight-best-campus-jobs-you/

裡面在介紹最佳打工的時候,提到了領位員這個工作。文章的段落是這樣寫的:「Student life at Harvard is all about multi-tasking-reading while you eat, using extracurriculars as social opportunities, catching up on sleep during class-so what could be better than getting paid to attend performances as an usher?」(在哈哈哈哈哈佛大學的學生生活本來就是包含了吃東西的時候多工處理看書,用課外活動時間當作社交機會,在課堂上補眠等等,那以領位員的身份打工兼去看表演不是更好嗎?

庭上,你看,哈哈哈哈哈哈佛大學的學生還在課堂上睡覺呢!本案可以宣判了吧!

好啦!有關課堂上吃東西這件事情,嚴格來說,我很同意Oakland社區大學的戲劇和詩歌教授Suzanne Labadie所講的,雖然她不是什麼名校教授,但說的話卻很合理:

Eating and drinking in class is fine by me. What I do ask is that you do these things inconspicuously. Eating during class is a privilege, not a right. Your coffee or snack is much less important than what we are doing as a group. Big snacks should be reserved for the break.(我不介意你們飲食。但我要求的是你們作這些事情的時候不要引人注目。在課堂上飲食不是權力,而是特許的例外。你們的咖啡和零食並不比我們團體要做的任務來得重要。量大的零食則請下課休息時再享用。

我的看法很簡單,學生上課吃東西這件事情的重要性,遠比不過政大講座教授錢致榕演講的時候胡亂引用,牽強武斷給予大眾錯誤印象來的嚴重!

錢致榕博士,如果你不是百分之百確定,如果你不能代表美國的所有學校和教授,請你尊重自己講座教授的稱謂和和社會對你的期待,查證之後再說!

但真正重要的才不是錢致榕的錯誤引述,而是下一次,當網友或是學生又有機會坐在台下,聆聽這樣明顯武斷、缺乏證據的言論的時候請你Google、查證、挑戰、分析,並且告知他們!

這已經不再是幾十年前那種台上站了一個國外回來的權威,台下每個人只能低頭乖乖聽話的時代了!

你不敢挑戰、反對、糾正權威,就是你的錯!

我們已經姑息出了一個搞不清楚雲端運算和雲端技術還可以投書的講座教授李家同,難道我們還要繼續鼓勵和炒作一個武斷的高能物理人文權威錢致榕嗎?

Lucifer

還有,幹你媽的不要再說我自己搞什麼鬼造神運動了,你他媽的沒有實力和膽識挑戰我難道是我的錯?

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迴響(1965)

1
2009-12-08 @ 11:13
迴響 from: folo [訪問者]
這些教授是活在幾十年前的阿
不能怪他們阿~~
2009-12-08 @ 11:14
這一天..我等了好幾年.....
2009-12-08 @ 11:14
迴響 from: roach [訪問者] Email · http://978a.net
*****
頭香?
2009-12-08 @ 11:15
迴響 from: 大寶大寶服務好 [訪問者]
奇怪哩~我以前在醫學院上課
教授還鼓勵我們帶早餐進去吃呢
2009-12-08 @ 11:17
迴響 from: HudsonX [訪問者] · http://hudsonx.blogspot.com
*****
前5?
2009-12-08 @ 11:19
迴響 from: wild [訪問者] · http://www.wretch.cc/blog/AriesA
前10 ? 揮手..............揮手
2009-12-08 @ 11:22
迴響 from: davidtso [訪問者]
*****
重點在於自我的分析和思考...
2009-12-08 @ 11:22
迴響 from: Lee [訪問者] · http://greengirllee.pixnet.net/blog
大推啊~~
大學時代有幾位老師,讓我們邊上課邊吃點東西(晚餐時段的課)上起課來大都很愉快也很認真超筆記,出席率也不低啊
2009-12-08 @ 11:26
迴響 from: bighope [訪問者]
我常常上課吃巧克力
2009-12-08 @ 11:28
迴響 from: 約克夏飼主 [訪問者]
人家好不容易當上了教授
辛辛苦苦講課(先不論內容)
卻得不到"應有"的崇拜(應有:自定義詞)
難怪他要感慨了
2009-12-08 @ 11:29
迴響 from: chauan [訪問者]
***--
我自己是UC的學生, 在課堂上確實看得到食物 (可是沒有雞腿那麼誇張, 頂多就是餅乾/沙拉), 但是也很容易看到帶了食物, 卻一直在抄筆記, 結果到下課一口也沒吃

從這個事件上新聞之後, 我就對台灣(的)大學的課堂氣氛很好奇, 因為如果上課學生很投入, 教授自然不會去在意這些小地方
話說回來, 如果上課的時候學生死氣沉沉, 那教授當然看台下怎麼看都不順眼

就算是中午的課, 還是要想辦法上課前小填肚子, 下課後再去吃, 這個當作理由似乎只是顯示出對時間的計畫不夠完善而已

我自己是學生, 所以我知道該怎麼做是"尊重"
當然學生有權力抱怨教室不會教, 教超爛, 但是自己不能就這樣比爛, 都是大學生了, 應該自己去讀, 而不是一直怪罪

有多少學生體認到學校是社會的縮影, 而且是一個讓你有犯錯空間的實習社會...在學校可以玩, 但是也不要忘記以後
2009-12-08 @ 11:30
迴響 from: 小印度 [訪問者] · http://www.hmtcosmetic,com
*****
沒錯~~"幹"的好~~大推
2009-12-08 @ 11:30
迴響 from: chauan [訪問者]
上篇有錯字 "教室" --> "教授"
2009-12-08 @ 11:31
迴響 from: 白木宅男 [訪問者]
外國的什麼都好! 本地的什麼都不好, 台灣學生不是台灣人教的, 不是台灣人生的! 繼續罵吧! 最好什麼都是外國人教, 個個都是日本人, 混血兒!
2009-12-08 @ 11:31
迴響 from: Beelzebub [訪問者] · http://mypaper.pchome.com.tw/news/anruse/
*****
很有感覺的一篇文章

這一兩個月來為了父親的病情跑了很多次醫院
上網查資料、查書、看別人的經驗談
甚至在所謂專業XX科權威主任的頭銜下
問了一大堆問題

顯然這位權威主任不愧是主任,很會打太極
不是叫我去問放射科、就是叫我去問血液腫瘤科

很好,當初你不是說你們是一個團隊嗎?
怎麼不一起會診,這樣對病人也比較好
不用舟車勞頓
有問題也可以一次問清楚講明白

而且,怎麼還會有復健師和營養師
連病人什麼狀況都搞不清楚
就打電話來說什麼不要吃

查完各方資料後
我可以說對這間醫院的部分醫生
產生極不信任感

我跟爸媽說:醫生不是神(尤其是西醫)
但是看來沒用

然後我理解了何謂專業的傲慢
2009-12-08 @ 11:31
迴響 from: Seraph.Su [訪問者]
前10?
2009-12-08 @ 11:33
迴響 from: Islander [訪問者]
他說的沒錯阿

美國學生真的不會上課"啃雞腿"
他們也不太吃雞腿

你查了一堆 有人有說學生會上課啃雞腿嗎?
如果你在美國上課拿起雞腿就啃 那應該是很有趣的畫面


(Lucifer:那應該要說蔥油餅才對,美國學生上課絕對不吃蔥油餅!)
2009-12-08 @ 11:34
迴響 from: AD [訪問者]
Hey MOM, I am here~~ *WAVE* 再度前二十~~
2009-12-08 @ 11:37
迴響 from: chimaera [訪問者]
自己的感覺國外教授比較多是只要你不干擾上課,你在下面吃甚麼都沒關係...(話說糖果零食有時助於集中精神阿(我個人啦))
2009-12-08 @ 11:39
迴響 from: 強人鐵忠 [訪問者]
說得很好~挑戰權威

我從來不覺得那些站在上面的人就是不可抵禦的權威

大師也會講錯話 做錯事

不一定要照單全收嘛~

另外 造神運動這番話

我老是在批踢踢看到

有時看到都煩了

真佩服那些看到關鍵字就開砲的人啊~

人生如果都可以這麼片面

那麼一切就簡單多了~
2009-12-08 @ 11:40
迴響 from: 夏夜 [訪問者]
***--
飲食一辭包涵吃(雞腿)喝(咖啡)
上課飲食東西方有別吧!

畢竟我自己覺的吃雞腿比喝啡划算又提神~
2009-12-08 @ 11:40
迴響 from: 蘿蔔特 周 [訪問者]
我以前在清大讀書的時候, 書報討論(seminar)的教授還要求上台報告的同學準備一些點心飲料給同學享用, 這完全不妨礙我們的聽講跟討論, 甚至讓打瞌睡的同學減少咧
2009-12-08 @ 11:40
迴響 from: 瑪菲 [訪問者] Email
原則上我也覺得無所謂,可是可以不要是弄了蒜泥醬油的蛋餅或蘿蔔糕那類的嗎 味道很重耶
2009-12-08 @ 11:43
迴響 from: 光牙 [訪問者]
*----
朱胖、你大可以向台灣的學生家長們好好宣傳這些你從網路世界上無數學校經驗談文章中找到的不足十篇丁點兒反論。我相信抗議隊伍很快會排滿你基金會大門前。

此外、你必須搞清楚反對的是1.錢致榕的「哈佛學生上課不吃東西」說 2.還是上課飲食這件事本身。

若為前者:僅管去舉那少的可憐的反論,事實上只有你舉的王丹第一個例子與哈佛目前學生課堂生活相關,其他皆無關。若為後者:就算請台大師生全體投票,也不見得同意的人比較多。

(Lucifer:有的時候我真的覺得你閱讀能力那麼差,留言之前可以再想一想。至於抗議的宣傳,我想有多少人來抗議我倒是不太擔心,越多越好啊。
2009-12-08 @ 11:53
迴響 from: cchien [訪問者]
*****
在美國
上課吃東西喝飲料完全是允許的
至少我在北卡大五年沒見過老師阻止學生上課吃東西喝飲料
說個更誇張的
有一次考final
整整考了六~七個小時
中間橫跨午餐時間
老師買個一堆snack bar和巧克力
走到每個同學位子前面一一發放
還說不夠的話在跟他講
他會馬上去「補貨」
於是我就在一邊吃著士力架一邊寫考卷中度過了漫長的六小時...Orz
老實講
以士力架那麼高糖份的食物
當時竟讓我有「食不知味」的感覺..="=
2009-12-08 @ 11:56
迴響 from: Ghost [訪問者]
***--
新的世界沒有神!!

不過說真的,學習和上課吃食物其實是兩碼子事,這和學習效果是沒有關聯的,就算學生打瞌睡好了,那也是該位個人的問題,甘所有學生屁事...
只要拿的出成績,學到真正該學的知識和正確的理念,這有什麼關係,難道上課時吃薄荷糖提神防瞌睡也是罪惡嗎?
我就不相信這些國外回來的高級教授就沒在上課時做過這些事...放屁,只是他們沒被人舉發過而已...
刮別人的鬍子時,請先量量自己陰毛...
2009-12-08 @ 12:11
迴響 from: グロ [訪問者] · http://www.plurk.com/kenryokanbara
*****
現代台灣畢業生(學士、碩士);同學!快出來跟我一起去作領22K的工作!

※花錢培養出來然後順便創造這種壓榨的環境還不都這些腦殘官員跟腦殘大人們自找的...怪誰!?怪受害者喔!?

還要抓著這個點打到什麼時候!?沒腦也要有個限度啊...
2009-12-08 @ 12:12
迴響 from: 哈哈哈 [訪問者]
上課吃東西應該不會影響吧(不懂為什麼不能喝水吃餅乾這種規則『
但是我覺得外過學生真的比較珍惜上課的時間
(我真的這麼覺得)
2009-12-08 @ 12:21
迴響 from: 土著 [訪問者]
我好奇的是朱學恆舉例完全都在支持錢教授的說法
舉例說有人表示「如果允許上課吃東西會有幫助」
有人表示「有些教授允許」「有特別時候教授允許」
甚至用飲食方式上課能變新聞
都表示師生慣例是上課不飲食 而少數教授會特例允許 也有少數學生匆忙犯規

搞叛逆、表現自主和吃東西講手機無相關
教授可以不必出言要求尊重
但學生卻不可以因此不尊重課堂
如果有天是學生抱怨教授上課吃炸雞排太香了讓人發餓很討厭呢
食物干擾旁人是遠比你想像為大
超過上課講手機吵大家

Lucifer:嗯嗯,所以上課吃東西非常了不得,但教授演講武斷瞎扯引述錯誤就沒關係。(筆記)
2009-12-08 @ 12:22
迴響 from: Delta [訪問者]
****-
其實說真的

我還沒在上課看過啃雞腿的情形....

那在台灣也是很少見的吧?

頂多就吃麵包吃早餐吃零嘴之類的

爾偶可以看到吃便當
2009-12-08 @ 12:27
迴響 from: Beelzebub [訪問者] · http://mypaper.pchome.com.tw/news/anruse/
*****
上課吃雞排是有點超過
因為太香了

不過以前我在研究所上課
小組討論和報告的時候
教授會要求各小組準備零食點心飲料喔

大家吃吃喝喝互相討論題目
感覺比較輕鬆,而且也不會妨礙學習啊
教授也會和我們一起吃喝順便偷空閒聊咧

實在看不出來上課吃東西和學習有啥相關
這教授沒事亂開砲衝知名度嗎?
2009-12-08 @ 12:30
迴響 from: 王中之王的王 [訪問者]
教授和學生一起吃雞排上課比較不會尷尬~
2009-12-08 @ 12:30
迴響 from: 小小小學老師 [訪問者]
不諱言 身為小學老師 我覺得上課吃東西是不被世俗眼光所允許的 但是 我及我身邊的同事都覺得 如果孩子有特殊原因沒吃早餐 我們會讓他們在教室外先吃完再進教室 如果是賴床來不及吃 我們會說那請下課再吃 原因是小孩子正在學習常規 有些規範是必需的 然而 大學生經過多年的學習生涯 應該懂得如何做到兩全其美 教授無須太在意上課吃東西這一點 大學生拿進教室吃的東西也盡量別太招搖 味道不重不油膩的 我想教授跟其他同學應該都能接受 學習這種事應該是輕鬆自然比較好 師生關係好學習效果會更好
2009-12-08 @ 12:40
迴響 from: rad [訪問者]
我也有異議!!你舉的例子也很多特例,一樣不公正。而且錢的言論指出的國立大學生享有絕大部分的教育資源,隱然成為一種特權階級這點,也是鐵的事實。國立大學生可以反駁,但也要反省。

Lucifer:孩子,老錢武斷的說美國學校不會發生這種事,我只要找到一個例子就可以推翻他的可信度,哪有什麼不公正,人家講座教授耶,我算什麼東西。
2009-12-08 @ 12:42
迴響 from: baabuu [訪問者] · http://www.plurk.com/baabuu
*****
***
閱畢~~

====
我會在同事發謠言信的時候,
請他們去看[網路追追追]......
2009-12-08 @ 12:45
迴響 from: 章魚哥 [訪問者]
尊重,我想不論是洪蘭或錢致榕所要強調尊重,對自己尊重對師長尊重對其它同學尊重,而不只在吃不吃雞腿上著墨,去上課的大學生也都是成年人也有基本的判斷能力去選擇要不要去上課,去了在吃便當看DVD睡覺…那去幹嘛,倒不如在宿舍豈不是舒服多了,不是嗎,這種敷衍的態度才是最大問題
換個角度來說,那天去看病,發現醫生一手雞排一手啤酒,有多少人可以接受
2009-12-08 @ 13:11
迴響 from: 路人甲 [訪問者]
其實在大學, 課堂上准不准吃東西端看老師心情, 只要不要吃的誇張到影響到旁邊同學聽課就好; 不過話說回來, 如果你有本事不聽課都可以考得很好, 那就表示:
1.老師水準太差, 所以本來這堂課就不該開.
2.你的水準太高, 所以本來就不該聽這堂課.
不過如果沒有這種程度, 那麼遇到耍陰的老師, 讓你考的滿江紅又不給你講人情, 也只能自己摸摸鼻子認栽了.

另外; 在哈佛課堂上吃雞腿不算什麼啦, 要就吃「豬血糕」啦~~~
2009-12-08 @ 13:16
迴響 from: Keith Lin [訪問者]
你引述的意見好像的確說明國外學校是禁止上課飲食的 只是大部分的教授並不會在意而已
請注意 他們不在意的前提是底下的學生並不白目
並不代表底下的人可以吃雞腿 或便當這種已經會發出味道干擾上課的東西
我自己上課的時候 老師也很明白的說 你們要吃東西可以 但是不能吃會有味道干擾其他同學的東西
我現在了解為甚麼會有人講你在做造神運動 因為你講的東西也是斷章取義 扭曲原文 請問 這跟你以前批判的對象有何不同 是因為你也年紀到了某一個階段了嗎
還有 雲端技術 我相信你懂得不會比我多 而我也可以明白的告訴你 你對雲端的認知不會比李家同好 你批李家同的其他東西我都很欣賞 但是當你批一樣其實自己也不懂得東西 就讓我覺得 原來你跟你自己批判的對象也沒有差別呀

(Lucifer:原來你連文章都看不懂就知道斷章取義,真是好厲害呀。還懂不懂雲端運算哩,你要不要去教教李家同遠端存取的差異啊。我現在瞭解為什麼有人在說我做造神運動,原來是許多人的閱讀分析能力已經低落到正常人相對於你而言是神了,是因為你年紀也到了某個階段了嗎?
2009-12-08 @ 13:18
迴響 from: 上班要認真........裝忙 [訪問者]
*****
我怎麼覺得樓上邏輯怪怪的...
2009-12-08 @ 13:28
迴響 from: 好奇 [訪問者]
我還蠻好奇樓樓上對於 cloud computing 的認識...是技術面還是商業面的? @@

而且你的邏輯怪怪的 XD

我想你說的道理所有學生應該都懂吧
況且這種東西本來就是灰色地帶
我想恐龍批的是不能直接歸類成一黑或一白直接對這個行為下結論吧
2009-12-08 @ 13:36
迴響 from: 客人 [訪問者]
您這篇文章,讓我失望了.諸如以上回應的,一切的重點皆在於對知識和同學與課堂.教授的尊重,是不是引經據典的詳述來源又如何?這篇文章.真的.味道差了.

Lucifer:嗯嗯,所以上課吃東西非常了不得,但教授演講武斷瞎扯引述錯誤就沒關係。(筆記)
2009-12-08 @ 13:37
迴響 from: 化外一野夫 也來差一腳 [訪問者]
這是人文素養與專業傲慢的戰爭,兩者之間各有說詞。有智慧的人,深解其因果,導之以善,化之於無形。只有我們這一些庸庸碌碌的無智之人,尚以格物致知之精神,讓理越辯越明的逞口舌之快,這就是我們渾渾大眾的學習與反省的方式。
2009-12-08 @ 13:42
迴響 from: ni [訪問者]
朱大你有點激動,我還是不太明白抓出這些“權威“的語病,然後臭幹一番的動機?是維護學生人權?還是因為有人頂到你的肺?.....


(Lucifer:因為BT站最近被砍很多導致抓A片很不順,我超悲憤的。
2009-12-08 @ 13:44
迴響 from: 化外一野夫 也來插一腳 [訪問者]
"你不敢挑戰、反對、糾正權威,就是你的錯!"或許太嚴重了點,但講得真實在。盡信書(權威),不如無書(權威),對於權威或是威權,或許我現在沒有反對您,因為我的層級、思想與與能力還不夠,但也並不代表我就認同您。我們只是再需要一點時間,來多了解一點。
2009-12-08 @ 13:55
迴響 from: beta [訪問者]
朱大,你這篇,失焦了。

Lucifer:我也笑到快失禁了。
2009-12-08 @ 14:01
迴響 from: Beelzebub [訪問者] · http://mypaper.pchome.com.tw/news/anruse/
要來戰雲端技術了嗎?

準備板凳先

請問Keith Lin該不會是某科技公司
這方面的工程師吧
這邊眾多阿宅應該很有興趣聽你講課喔~^^
2009-12-08 @ 14:03
迴響 from: yumin [訪問者]
*****
米國大學教室不給吃東西的另一個理由有一個是因為避免螞蟻蟑螂茲長。但是他們「每天」都有清潔人員,真的是一間間打掃。但是很多圖書館給有蓋飲料或是咖啡進去圖書館的,所以圖書館的書都不怕螞蟻跟蟑螂就是了拉?

不過的確錢教授的美國只是他「個人」的美國,不是整個米國!太多人有我住的米國就是全部米國的誤解。也不意外為何有紐約才是米國的那種大誤了。
2009-12-08 @ 14:15
迴響 from: 阿仁 [訪問者]
*****
一個簡單問題就打死一群錢洪之流擁護者:

既然重點不在上課能不能吃東西,在於態度,那你們是哪隻眼睛看到台大醫科學生沒有態度又不尊重老師啊?

該系教授允許這行為,外人卻在大喊離經叛道,還引申成上課吃東西等於沒品德沒醫德沒專業不感恩的敗德大學生,你們都不覺得這邏輯有問題?

這篇意思就是上課吃不吃東西在外國是開放的,沒有統一標準,跟國內是一樣的啦!

反正就算事證提出來也會有人講說這一定是少數教授本身沒品德才會縱容沒品德的學生啦!

2009-12-08 @ 14:39
迴響 from: Alan [訪問者]
*****
昨天晚上帶小7的微波水餃和養樂多去課堂,
坐電梯時,被一位老處女瞪,干~老子是在職班,
下班都6:30pm,沒空吃晚餐行不行,干~
2009-12-08 @ 14:41
迴響 from: 晃晃 [訪問者] Email
能不能吃由上課老師決定就好
他說不能你就偷偷吃不要被抓包
他說能吃就不用客氣
我都是這樣的^^
2009-12-08 @ 14:46
迴響 from: Benson [訪問者]
我在美國念碩士,遇到討論為主的課程,教授都會帶東西分給大家阿~

還有例如最後一週的課,有些教授也會帶點零嘴來~還有買披薩的咧....

害我一直以為美國人的學風都是那麼開放自由,真是太武斷了呀.....要反省!
2009-12-08 @ 14:52
迴響 from: 椰奶 [訪問者]
美國等於好, 台灣等於糟糕.
專家觀點等於好, 庶民觀點等於糟糕.
教授等於好, 學生等於糟糕.
把這三個假設帶入, 那麼錢先生的文章言之有理.
但是很抱歉, 我不敢苟同這三個假設, 同時或任一.
另外,格主文章有沒有失焦, 或是動氣, 那沒關係, 這是他的地方, 他的文章. 不需要觀眾來評分. 我們有提醒就ok了, 不必拿這些來大作文章.
2009-12-08 @ 14:53
迴響 from: 李家同推論:運台黃金 部分來自人民 [訪問者]
【聯合報╱記者李青霖/新竹市報導】

清華大學「搶救一九四九文獻展」中,有五封蔣介石寫給抗日將領湯恩伯的信,提到運黃金事;清大榮譽教授李家同推論,當年有一部分黃金應來自人民。

他說很多年輕人不知道湯恩伯是誰,他童年住上海法界租界區內,「隔壁再隔壁住的就是湯恩伯」。一九四九年上海淪陷,當時只聽見砲聲愈來愈小,父親看到湯恩伯家門前的小兵和崗哨都撤掉;共軍進上海市前呈真空狀態。

之後,他看到有人進湯恩伯家搶劫,一對兄妹扛著精美沙發經過他家,被一名便衣警察攔下,兄妹向便衣下跪磕頭,要求讓他們保有沙發的景象,令他難忘。

李家同說,抗戰勝利後,民窮財盡,美援也在宋子文操弄下很快用完,政府哪來的黃金運台灣?當時政府發行金圓券,告訴人民說,金圓券發行價值是根據國庫準備金,且限制民間不得藏金;當年民眾排隊將黃金送至中央銀行,媒體曾報導過。

事後他問過父親是否把黃金送給政府,父親告訴他:「我一輩子都不相信政府。」抗戰勝利後不久,他父親辭職並告誡他:「永遠不要替政府作事。」

李家同推論,當年蔣介石運台黃金,有一部分應來自人民。他說對政府貪汙問題,一直耿耿於懷,任何社會若無公義,不可能有真正的和平,政府若不能替人民做事,就會造成災難。

清大教授楊儒賓補充,抗戰勝利後,在大陸的台灣人被當日人對待,一名何姓大戶為求自保,捐獻房地產及黃金,事後反悔要求索回;但政府只同意發還房產,不還黃金。據此推論,當年運抵台灣的黃金也有一部分來自這位何姓大戶。

Lucifer:為什麼李家同又來救援!
2009-12-08 @ 14:55
迴響 from: 有錢我也要去國外體會米國的靈動力. [訪問者]
有錢我也要去米國體會米國的靈動力.米國最好,其他國都是垃圾!
2009-12-08 @ 14:59
迴響 from: 一直叫阿宅的那群瘋子。高3生 [訪問者]
*----
朱大:
昨天的研講真是精采(拍拍拍)
見義勇為的精神
我要好好的嚮你學習

小s說你是摔角選手,應該有再收集緊身衣。
你極力的否認,說不是
但...真懷疑你有沒有再收集緊身衣餒@@
哈xD

13年後的小白
真是讓我感動(泣)

3個月做完人生大事
真是太屌咯~拍手~

我同學研講完就跑去跟你買書
改天再借來看看:)

上課時,老師們還跟我們討論你研講的內容耶~
國文老師還要我們寫一句心得
哈xD



Lucifer:感覺你們被捲入激烈的戰鬥中哈鉿哈。
2009-12-08 @ 15:11
迴響 from: 冬 [訪問者] Email
反過來說,私立大學欠政府比較少錢,所以私立大學可以上課啃雞腿之類的東西?
2009-12-08 @ 15:30
迴響 from: 左光紫 [訪問者]
我個人的看法是:
這些名人除了點出學生的不是,也應該要講出在這結構中既得利益者的不是才對。
(不過講出來還有錢好賺嗎?XD)
就像之前說學生英文能力不足,之前不景氣在官方資訊上只有煽動大眾投資。
在教育上,不要只是靠補教界在彌補所學程度根本不足的差距。
那投資到教育上的錢又能有多少意義呢?
個人覺得:朱大是媒體人,是單打獨鬥的媒體人,不過這樣的網路文章呈現,大部分原因是源自個人的原有習性吧。XD
2009-12-08 @ 15:36
迴響 from: 大刀 [訪問者] · http://sakuraikmu.edu.tw
朱大:

你最後一張把我們同事玉照放進來了,害我笑半天:)

沒事,諘繼續用餐或聽課。

Lucifer:那是台灣哈鉿哈鉿哈佛大學政大的演講照片耶你同事在裡面幹嘛?
2009-12-08 @ 15:49
迴響 from: 我寫故我在 [訪問者]
朱大幹得好, 上課吃東西, 不代表這學生就不用功
2009-12-08 @ 16:09
迴響 from: chi [訪問者]
****-
上課吃東西,其實並不是不尊重師長阿
話說我1997年在BC上暑期課程時,
衝擊最大的就是....
學生可以在課堂上吃蘋果/喝咖啡 然後和教授在課堂上直接辯論
反觀國內,第一堂課吃個水煎包還要偷偷吞下肚,
既不健康又消化不良,

歸本溯源,個人以為台灣教育欠缺的就是尊重"人"的本身阿
2009-12-08 @ 16:52
迴響 from: JJT [訪問者]
我是UC Berkeley的學生. 學校還算可以, 但是追求自由的風氣, 無論是在學術上或是生活上, 都相當的濃厚, 我想這點應該沒有人反對吧.

在課堂上, 我沒有見過有人堂而皇之的吃東西.吃東西不奇怪, 喝咖啡不奇怪, 奇怪的是態度. 大部分的人不會膚淺的認為這就是挑戰權威. 在我看來, 那相當的無聊.

我也不同意凡事就要以美國作標準, 或是找反證. 我不知道這意義在哪? 不是要獨立思考嗎?

以上只是我個人淺見. 基本上, 樓主這篇反應相當"弱"

Lucifer:嗯嗯,所以上課吃東西非常了不得,但教授演講武斷瞎扯引述錯誤就沒關係。(筆記)順帶一提,如果是我,像這樣連UC Berkeley質疑權威的精神都沒學到,我可不敢隨便丟UC Berkeley的名號出來啊。)
2009-12-08 @ 17:07
迴響 from: monlanlong [訪問者]
我覺得那都不重要,朱大,沒有美女值星官這比較嚴重吧!而我想「可以不要這麼崇拜武斷的權威嗎?」這才是問題吧?每個人都可以表達自己的看法,但是要有所本,而不是沒有根據的說一些自以為是的話。我們已經有許多政治名嘴了,不要再有一堆學術名嘴。
2009-12-08 @ 17:21
迴響 from: 拆組達人 [訪問者] · http://blog.iegoffice.com/
專家是訓練有訓的狗!
但別忘了!
老狗是玩不出新把戲的!只會狗眼看人低!
用他的思考邏輯來以管窺天!
只有他自己的世界才是世界!(誤?)
2009-12-08 @ 17:29
迴響 from: 失望 [訪問者]
閱畢
零昏

Lucifer:拜託你以為我們這邊幼稚園喔,多發言就表示勝利嗎?同一個IP不要一直重複灌水啦。
2009-12-08 @ 17:53
迴響 from: 路人 [訪問者]
重點不在於課堂上能不能吃東西,重點在於學生的態度。錢洪兩位的文章用語或許會讓學生感到不爽,但他們的重點不就是在態度嗎?態度要從哪觀察?當然從你的表現來觀察啊。難道你要跟我說,你三不五時上課睡覺啃雞腿,但你態度很好?鬼才相信。別跟我舉那些極少數的特例,特例就是特例,不能代表普遍現象。

朱大這篇有點自婊了,說穿了,跟錢洪兩位的文章沒什麼差別 (也沒有什麼不好),只是說法不同而已。
2009-12-08 @ 18:08
迴響 from: 失望 [訪問者]
同一個IP不代表同一個人
查一下這IP是哪裡再說

還是零昏

Lucifer:還留不停哩~~~對了等下要去比漢堡東西軍了說!爽!
2009-12-08 @ 18:09
迴響 from: sherry [訪問者]
*----
取笑李家同的雲端運算,或是就一些不是很重要的論點在網路找很多資料來譏諷這位政大教授,我真的不認為這是挑戰權威,而是尖酸刻薄吹毛求疵的消遣,朱大您對年輕人有很大的影響力,您隨便發一篇文,就會有上百個還不清楚狀況的年輕人覺得爽,在推文裡大聲叫好,這樣的影響力用在這種雞毛蒜皮的事情上,有什麼實益嘛? 這些老杯杯們的言論頂多是一些經典碎碎念,年輕人聽了也不會有什麼壞處,就當作聽爸媽嘮叨,有必要這麼得理(?)不饒人這麼刻薄嘛?找其他的方向吧!這種文,只顯示您很會google,很雞蛋裡挑骨頭,對年輕人我不覺得有什麼幫助!

Lucifer:如果年輕人只在那邊等我幫助,那不如去死一死好了,我可沒義務要幫助他們。這種等級的文章哪叫譏諷錢致榕啊,是基本的事實查證好不好。
2009-12-08 @ 18:11
迴響 from: 香腸伯 [訪問者]
個人觀點
感覺上,朱大的文章說了那麼久
其實都只是要請大家好好思考
上課與吃東西間的關連
並不是權威出來說這是不尊重師長
就是不尊重師長,這太過於武斷
而是要大家思索
這件事本身自行的判斷
而不是權威們說了就是對的
像台大學生後來舉辦的活動..
就很值得給大家做一個反思ㄅ
2009-12-08 @ 18:22
迴響 from: CHIEH [訪問者]
UC Berkeley大學的學生就比較屌喔
我是National Tsing Hua University
你擺明只是想炫耀你的大學
你的回應只有一個字可形容
那就是"乾"
2009-12-08 @ 18:26
迴響 from: wizist [訪問者] Email
樓上的,人家說他是 UC Berkeley 只是為了佐證他的論述,我看不出來有什麼炫耀之意,何必如此酸呢?
2009-12-08 @ 18:33
迴響 from: CHIEH [訪問者]
樓上的
那他大可表達它的論述就好,不必特別打出他的大學吧??!!
你看不出來那是你家的事
2009-12-08 @ 18:36
迴響 from: ken1234 [訪問者]
***--
我想朱大要批評的是"武斷的權威". 其目的是要告訴大家"不要太過相信權威". 就像文裡舉證的反例就足以證明錢教授對於美國大學的說法是有誤的, 或者說是以偏概全了. 不過, 話雖如此, 我也不贊成學生上課吃東西, 尤其是"雞腿"這種油膩又會飄香的食物, 會讓人感到不受尊重. 很多事情都是過猶不及, 學生和老師彼此都該拿捏分寸才對. 基本上已經是大學生了, 教授大可以一笑置之不用激動. 學生呢, 吃點別的食物吧!
2009-12-08 @ 18:47
迴響 from: 老宅男 [訪問者]
豬雪糕大大
真難為你了
不過小弟有一點意見,這上課吃東西本來就沒什麼值得討論的,後來被媒體搞得雞毛成令箭,現在錢教授又來尬一腳,變得你也落得把雞毛當令箭的下場,幹麻咧?別操過多的心好嘛?
還有,文末你對造神運動的污衊果真在乎嗎?嘖嘖這不是好現象喔。


Lucifer:其實不是那麼在乎,但是可以趁機罵幹你媽算是一個加分~~~
2009-12-08 @ 18:49
迴響 from: wizist [訪問者]
樓上的照你的邏輯,那我是不是也可以說,你覺得炫耀是你家的事啊?

(我可以肯定,你嘴巴尖酸刻薄倒是學會不少啊)
2009-12-08 @ 18:50
迴響 from: CHIEH [訪問者]
樓上的
你大可這麼說
這樣我也可以肯定,你嘴巴尖酸刻薄倒是學會不少啊
2009-12-08 @ 18:57
迴響 from: 綜合水果汁武士 [訪問者]
***--

根據鄉民三大運動定律之三點一四一五九條:

"有人看的批判,才是批判。"

自我感覺良好權威有言:

"我的言論又再度引起了社會大眾廣大的迴響!送啦!"


2009-12-08 @ 19:00
迴響 from: 白吃 [訪問者]
我跟學校的關係一向是

今日我不以學校為恥
明日學校不以我為恥

樓上的,丟清華的臉喔
2009-12-08 @ 19:07
迴響 from: Vincent [訪問者]
*****
數年前,我在淡大歐研所就讀時,有一位教授上課的特色就是,要求每位聆聽的研究生要針對報告人提出質疑與問題,教授除了打報告人的分數,也打提問人的分數.我就是在那樣的環境下培養批判的精神.學生要有批判的精神與勇氣,授課的老師也要有相對等的胸襟.

支持阿宅的論點
2009-12-08 @ 19:25
迴響 from: 過路人 [訪問者]
*----
為何這篇許多人覺得弱?我想一定有些道理。正如啃雞腿跟吃餅乾是截然不同的兩件事一樣,挑戰權威與挑語病更是無法等同而語。朱大應該可以寫更多真正挑戰權威的好文才是!

Lucifer:哪有什麼好文爛文,每篇都是爛文啦。上面在講權威,底下在講菜單,是不是大家都要回去讀小學?
2009-12-08 @ 19:37
迴響 from: 土著 [訪問者]
謝謝朱學恆讓我讀到錢教授的觀點 有料!
學生學習需要相對付出 如果他誤以為是免費 就會盡量少付心力成本
錢教授提醒公費生 教育成本其實極高 要對得起公費
就算我讀鳥爛私校也摸不到哈佛的邊 但此事不會與我無關
因為我是納稅人 不是看醫生才付錢 而是早在醫生養成階段就付錢教育他們了 所以我也有資格念他們兩句!
你們這些準醫生給我讀好一點!

朱學恆認為錢教授說美國大學名校禁止上課飲食 所以只要有一個人曾上課飲食就是錢教授「引述錯誤」
錢教授所說是常識 我以為無庸證明了
超商禁止偷東西不言自明 但不會有人說「超商遭過小偷、店員在超商拿東西吃、店長掏腰包請店員吃商品 就證明超商准偷」吧

我好奇朱學恆會不會說自己「引述錯誤」
關於上次朱學恆引述轉寄信 提款機單據有上億餘額 朱學恆評論說台積電員工果然很有錢
其實蘋果日報已報導查證單據是偽造一事
是否不經查證、引述錯誤?

(Lucifer:我想我不會承認什麼引述錯誤,我想我會指控你幽默感有病,可能要去看醫生。明顯白爛的資料都看了當真,就跟你這邊袒護錢老頭一樣,孩子,袒護權威可以不顧對方講的多武斷就一句常識混過去?誰跟你說常識?
2009-12-08 @ 19:40
迴響 from: 小劉排骨飯 [訪問者]
如果有一天朱大精心安排了一場精彩演講,卻發現台下同學三三兩兩,反應又不熱烈,還在底下吃臭臭鍋....演講的地方又是密閉空間,空調又壞了,不曉得朱大的心情會是怎樣呢?
我想教授的武斷認定是錯的,但是同學們應該也要自省是不是自己的態度出了甚麼問題呢?!


(Lucifer:我肚子餓的話會搶他們東西來吃~~~
2009-12-08 @ 19:43
迴響 from: 人必自重而後人重之 [訪問者]
當初看到洪蘭教授砲轟台大學生,上課吃泡麵、啃雞腿,打開電腦看連續劇、趴在桌上睡大頭覺的新聞時,當下腦海中的第一個反應是......這是來到餐廳秀了嗎?????

後來,陸陸續續的有人在報上投書,在ppt發表意見.其實,每個人說的都有道理,不過就針對學生上課吃泡麵、啃雞腿這件事而言,我是覺得這跟這個學生的個人修養及家教有關,跟讀什麼學校,以及失敗的教育體制沒什麼太大的關係.

一個最簡單的道理:己所不欲勿施於人
不想受到這種不尊重的對待,就不要這樣不尊重別人.

2009-12-08 @ 20:23
迴響 from: 人必自重而後人重之 [訪問者]
更正:是ptt 不是ppt~~抱歉
2009-12-08 @ 20:27
迴響 from: 我以前是大學生 [訪問者]
真奇怪,我們還有老師因為搶時間搶輸其他教授,所以不得以把課排在下午5點-8點這時間,他歡迎大家在上課吃東西但是味道重、油膩、味道特殊的請自重,最好是三明治之類的就好。而且不只有一個老師有這樣的要求,如果非要吃東西請以輕食為主。
2009-12-08 @ 20:36
迴響 from: 傻不拉多的爸爸 [訪問者] Email
****-
這篇的內容明明是鼓勵大家要注意引用證據的嚴肅性,不要對權威盲從,怎麼留言有很多都是關於上課吃東西呢?
2009-12-08 @ 20:56
迴響 from: 傻不拉多的爸爸 [訪問者] Email
****-
跑題應該不是壞事〈大概吧〉,但跑提跑到幫格主預設立場再戰,感覺真的有不知對誰而戰的感覺耶!豬大宣導了這麼久還這樣,真的有點無奈。
2009-12-08 @ 21:01
迴響 from: leeada [訪問者]
吃的很吵倒是無法接受

有時候上課聞到雞排的味道還頗有精神的

腎上腺素分泌阿!!

想要第一時間聽到鐘響也衝去買一個來喀

結果反而更認真聽課。
2009-12-08 @ 21:03
迴響 from: CHIEH [訪問者]
TO:白吃

那是你自己想跟學校的關係

為什麼我的論點要跟學校扯在一起??
2009-12-08 @ 21:21
迴響 from: シュガー [訪問者]
一直瀏覽朱宅的BLOG這麼久,第一次留言有點緊張(抖)

就事論事,我大膽的推測此篇論述的重點不在學生該不該或能不能在課堂上吃東西.甚至可以說和這件事根本無關.

而是質疑所謂專家的權威;武斷的論調.還有「外國的月亮比較圓」這件事.

新的世界沒有神,因為每個人都有言論,質疑和獨立思考的自由.也許我們需要引導需要啟發;但是我們不需要偶像或是權威的崇拜.

所以我想相對的,朱宅(抱歉我不喜歡大來大去,不認識您直呼您名諱又太不禮貌)也不是神,他的言論也可以被質疑被批評,前提是你知道他說的是什麼,執著的論點又在哪裡.
2009-12-08 @ 21:52
迴響 from: 傻不拉多的爸爸 [訪問者] Email
*****
漢堡東西軍!太好了,我正準備要上台北呢,這是天啟是天啟呀。羞。我也跑題跑很大餒。
2009-12-08 @ 22:00
迴響 from: chris [訪問者]
首先~朱大幹得好!!

大家討論的方向好像有點偏了!這篇文章的重點不是在吃什麼或是怎麼吃~在哪個國家吃吧! 總而言之重點不是學生做了什麼~而是錢大師以什麼立場,什麼角度來批評,我以為,朱大的論點應該是身為大屍應該要對自己說的每一句話負責,而不是言過其實,有三分墨水卻說五分話!
2009-12-08 @ 22:03
迴響 from: Ethan [訪問者] Email
*****

基本上如果肚子餓我都直接出去吃東西

吃完在回教室上課

XDDD
2009-12-08 @ 22:06
迴響 from: 菸酒生 [訪問者]
幾個大教授認為課堂上吃東西是不尊重,是不認真........那為什麼論文口試的時候蛋糕飲料要準備的那麼充足....而且還是學生自己準備的....(也許教授地位高,所以可以不尊重學生)
2009-12-08 @ 22:18
迴響 from: 白吃 [訪問者]
清華大學生都不知道自己怎麼丟學校的臉
這真好笑
2009-12-08 @ 22:38
迴響 from: osama [訪問者]
朱大的挑戰權威的想法我相當認同
關於禁止動新聞,開放帶骨牛肉,ECFA,MOU的正當性以及22k等等事件

不過對於一些雞毛蒜皮的問題
什麼英文文法錯誤,美國人上課吃不吃東西
我認為這只會流於譁眾取寵

朱大呀朱大
男子漢就要挑大的打!!
2009-12-08 @ 22:44
迴響 from: 路人 [訪問者]
>這篇的內容明明是鼓勵大家要注意引用證據的嚴肅性,不要對權威盲從,怎麼留言有很多都是關於上課吃東西呢?
+1
2009-12-08 @ 22:50
迴響 from: CHIEH [訪問者]
哈哈
白吃也在丟自己學校的臉
2009-12-08 @ 22:51
迴響 from: mysterybear [訪問者]
to 菸酒生:

我太同意你的看法了。如果學生聽課就是不尊重師長的話,那師長聽學生口試吃東西是不是不尊重學生?更不用說學生口試的時候教授手機接個不停。

尊重基本上是地位對等的,而不是下對上的服從。利用權威讓別人”尊重”,那不叫尊重,那叫壓迫。

為什麼都沒有人去訪問洪蘭去台大旁聽的那堂課的老師?也許老師曾經跟學生說過上課可以吃便當。

2009-12-08 @ 22:54
迴響 from: 人必自重而後人重之 [訪問者]
傻不拉多的爸爸 :
跑題應該不是壞事〈大概吧〉,但跑提跑到幫格主預設立場再戰,感覺真的有不知對誰而戰的感覺耶!豬大宣導了這麼久還這樣,真的有點無奈。
***********************
跑題了~啊!真是抱歉.
您誤會了~~並沒有要幫朱宅神預設立場再戰的意思,我想我是看得懂這篇文章所要傳達的意思,對於錢致榕教授和朱宅神的見解,大概各同意一半一半,沒什麼意見.

不好意思,又要再跑題一次
我覺得團體生活要懂得互相尊重,不尊重老師也要尊重同學吧!?就算是上課可以吃東西,吃口味那麼重的東西,這樣好嗎!??然後打開電腦看連續劇這個最扯,這些人有沒有想到可能會影響到其他同學,都是大學生了,應該懂得什麼時間該作什麼事才對.
2009-12-08 @ 22:55
迴響 from: 白吃 [訪問者]
有各式各樣的意見討論很好阿
就這個討論來說,結果如無關痛癢

這個議題本來就是課堂上師生之間的事
而且這麼多人跳出來說
課堂吃東西,中外皆然

離題是留言板上幾乎會發生的
請平常心看待
2009-12-08 @ 22:57
迴響 from: 白吃 [訪問者]
no
no
no

清華大學生
我罵你的時候沒提到我的學校
所以不可能丟我讀過任何一所學校的臉
最多丟我的臉

你如果還不懂,我也沒辦法了
2009-12-08 @ 22:59
迴響 from: meso [訪問者]
*****
雖然我是在電腦補習班教電腦
教的也不是什麼高深的學問,多半是軟體操作的技巧
但我不會覺得同學帶東西進來吃是不尊重我
除非他帶來吃的東西味道太吸引人...會干擾到其他同學上課的情緒
(大家也知道電腦補習班的教師是能塞儘量塞...味道太重就真的有影響)
像嗑麥克雞塊或臭豆腐之類的...我就會請他到外面吃完再進來

---------------------------------------

尊重當然不是形式
學習也不是絕對嚴肅
如果講師覺得學生吃東西會影響到教學品質
這種東西是可以溝通的
因為每個講師的狀況都不同
不需要把所有事情都規定得不能變通
可以給學習者與教授者一些相互溝通的空間

--------------------------------------

其實去教電腦以後會覺得自己的心態有轉變
慢慢不會因為一些形式的表現就否定一個人
有時候只是短短的五堂課
但我可以看到很多人剛開始從第一堂迷惘到第五堂精神抖擻
這才是我覺得教學最有成就感的地方XDDDDD

下次做餐廳主題的示範時乾脆叫外賣來體驗一下專案
但是主任可能會把我抓去喝咖灰吧(囧)
2009-12-08 @ 23:20
迴響 from: 朱厚宅 [訪問者]
*****
本陪審員認為反對有效

理由如下

1:該教授非人文學科專業,意見可信度存疑

2:該教授言論有空泛之處,不符嚴謹治學之道

有沒有追加指控理由的?
2009-12-08 @ 23:26
迴響 from: wizist [訪問者] Email
真有趣,這裡出現很多人幫朱大文章解釋的論調,認為朱大的意思應該是怎樣怎樣云云... 朱大的意思難道不夠清楚嗎?看到沒,字體最大的那幾句就是重點啦...

老實說,我同意朱大的論點,不過,舉的例子並不是那麼貼切。隨便一邊報導,就能判定錢教授「胡亂引用,牽強武斷給予大眾錯誤印象」嗎?那篇報導是記者寫的,事實上又是如何呢?朱大看這一篇報導,可以上網找了許多例子來支持自己的論點,那有同樣花時間找出錢教授真正的意思嗎?如果沒有,是不是也犯了「胡亂引用,牽強武斷給予大眾錯誤印象」的錯誤呢?

朱大是意見領袖,具有不小的影響力。我也很贊同朱大提出的「挑戰、反對、糾正權威」,但我擔心的是反而教出一些自以為是、目中無人的無理傢伙,以為這樣就是就是反權威。





(Lucifer:可以去看一下錢致榕上一次上媒體亮相的時候的真正意思喔。
2009-12-08 @ 23:30
迴響 from: CHIEH [訪問者]
哈哈
白吃
你這句:你"罵"我的時候
所以你承認罵人了??
為什麼要罵人,有資格罵人嗎??
2009-12-08 @ 23:31
迴響 from: 哎呀呀 [訪問者]
別說課堂上了,說看電影吧!
當你看2012或變形金剛2的時候,你會帶個便當進去吃嗎?



Lucifer:魯味和飲料算不算?SUBWAY和漢堡?我都帶過耶。便當主要是太黑看不見。
2009-12-08 @ 23:40
迴響 from: 阿達 [訪問者] · http://kocpc.pixnet.net/blog
可能是我老了吧?在我的年代與觀念裡帶飲料進教室上課還OK,但帶便當、雞腿啃還兼玩電腦、聽音樂這樣的確是感受不到學生上課的認真誠意
2009-12-08 @ 23:47
迴響 from: 宅心人厚 [訪問者]
其實基本上朱大有個地雷,就是"專業權威泛用症",
當某專業權威針對不屬於其專業內涵發言時,造成許多媒體或群眾有盲從而未查證現象,且其發言內容又明顯有疏漏錯謬情況時,
就會觸動朱大的逆鱗。

基本上這沒什麼錯,
每個人對於各種公眾人物言論本來就要有分析批判的能力。
而身為公眾人物本來就比較衰,說話本來就更要謹言慎行,誰叫他們影響力大。
大樓管理員阿伯、隔壁計程車老王其實對於政界秘辛、美國機密五十一區都早有洞見之明,但他們講話就只有掃地阿桑和身為乘客的我偶爾聽聽,所以我也就懶得去指證他51區其實不是在阿肯色州而是在內華達州...

說這麼多,我只是覺得很多讀者的反應好像超過了文章想表達的意涵了一點...
2009-12-09 @ 00:07
迴響 from: 左光紫 [訪問者]
我想問題是:很多的研究者,很多專家,在自己的專業領域可以做到錙銖必較,在自己的專業領域發言通常都可以在每句話上精確合宜。
但是只要轉到專業領域以外,說話的精確嚴謹通常都蕩然無存。
為什麼?因為他們都忘記一個基本原則:面對任何人事物,都要謙虛以對。因為只有這樣的態度,才能在生命中每分每秒面對萬事萬物時,都能從中汲取儘可能多的資訊。
為什麼他們會這樣?很簡單,因為在他們投入專業領域汲汲營營前或是在這其間,他們並沒有認真面對各種領域的知識廣泛且深入的學習思考,因此在其基礎的人文素養其實是處在一種錯構的情況。
(專業領域的專精耗盡其所有的時間,使其無暇思考人生在專業領域外的其他問題是可以理解的,但仍然不可忘記面對萬事萬事都必須是謙虛的態度。)
如果再加上只迷惑於自身專業就以為自己是完人的假象,當然都會在普通發言產生荒腔走板的情況。
會在普通話題出錯的專家們,應該要撫心自問是否有資格談人文素養,或是自己犯了看輕其他領域專業,而不自覺有了所謂傲慢的態度。
2009-12-09 @ 00:07
迴響 from: abi [訪問者]
人家的部落格要寫啥自己爽就好..
不爽就不要看~罵來罵去煩死了...幹
2009-12-09 @ 00:12
迴響 from: 提傑小子 [訪問者] · http://www.wretch.cc/blog/IrishBoy
我覺得這就是關鍵呀
像被逼去看的變形金剛和2012很不對胃口
所以就一手捧爆米花一手捧可樂
但是像看戀夏500日之類的東西的時候
就很自然的會聚焦在螢幕上這樣吧哈哈哈

所以結論是片商的錯
2009-12-09 @ 00:25
迴響 from: Luke [訪問者]
*****
朱大:
你這一篇文章,讓我見識到原來會來你網站留言的人,有些人閱讀能力真的不是太好,栽贓的功力也是一流...幸好你夠強,才頂的住阿...幫你加一分
2009-12-09 @ 00:34
迴響 from: 陳忠敬 [訪問者] · http://www.wretch.cc/blog/n556689
之前看這篇報導阿

我們學校電腦老師還在那邊說東說西

我雖然才高中辣

不過我覺得,上課吃東西有不對嗎?

有些學生吃東西可以放鬆

這樣對上課精神不是不錯

而有些同學則是因為他們要上班 所以都晚吃

那個洪蘭教授 真的是只看外表 不看內在

就算沒吃食物的同學 難道他们就有專心上課嗎

真是 自以為是

我是因為你去我們學校演講阿

我才知道你耶

好酷歐

彰商 你知道吧

哈哈哈
2009-12-09 @ 00:38
迴響 from: 仔宅 [訪問者]
看到好多留言為戰而戰

卻沒有看清楚朱宅文章的重點所在

各位不要在為戰而戰了

這樣跟現今社會上政治人物沒兩樣了

不過

學校收費制度我倒是覺得該跟美國一樣

也許台大學費跟私立大學學校顛倒會來會好一點

~"~
2009-12-09 @ 00:49
迴響 from: wizist [訪問者] Email
朱大,樓上這位弟弟的發言讓我笑了,要不要乘機機會教育一下?他可是受到你的鼓舞的唷!

(Lucifer:彰商的進修部同學很多是要靠自己白天打工賺錢才有學費和生活費的,晚上的課五點就開始。如果老師同意他們可以有時間補充營養吃飯,我覺得很合理啊。)
2009-12-09 @ 00:49
迴響 from: wizist [訪問者] Email
避免誤會,我是說彰商的那位弟弟...

(這個留言系統如果能顯示幾樓就好了)
2009-12-09 @ 00:50
迴響 from: 影子 [訪問者]
我覺得只要不影響其他人的狀況下
吃東西跟睡覺都沒什麼影響
當然
基本的尊重應該是要有的

朱大主要反駁的重點應該不是探討上課吃不吃東西是否[合法]

而是反駁說

1.上課吃東西睡覺不代表就一定不尊重該堂課
有的時候還可以提升效率。

2.上課吃東西睡覺並不僅限於台灣

反駁:錢致榕不諱言,在哈佛、約翰霍普金斯等美國一流大學,不會如此

3.叫獸在舉出論證時應注意自身言論之影響
,誤隨意引用,以偏概全。

朱大的舉證是為者向權威嗆聲,而非強調上課吃東西睡覺的合理性。

*********************************
上課紀律和禮儀規範等等都非絕對,朱大等於是在向無俚頭的權威反抗罷了
**********************************
BUT.....
很多叫獸還是很討厭學生上課吃東西和打瞌睡
基本的禮儀還是要守
因為你吃東西很有可能會影響其他人學習的情緒,睡覺有可能會打呼........XD

SO在不侵犯別人的受教權的前提下,隨便你
吃飯睡覺還請低調進行



2009-12-09 @ 01:11
迴響 from: 等著要去國外付學費的窮學生 [訪問者]
如果我們的學生一學期要付四五萬美元(約150萬台幣),但畢業之後只能領22k,那台灣大概很快就革命了(也是好事一件啦)
2009-12-09 @ 01:17
迴響 from: Stan [訪問者]
*****
其實這些人最糟糕的還是寬以待己嚴以待人吧。不管是洪蘭還是那個錢致榕,自己講的話老是經不起基本的正確性檢驗,只能說是兩個老笑話。

吃東西這檔事我不完全贊成但也不完全反對,上課的人跟教課的人之間達成共識就好,旁人不應該插嘴。如果是洪蘭自己上課,下面的人大吃大喝,她當然有權阻止。但是別人上課,洪蘭在旁邊看了兩眼就開始起乩,那被當成瘋子也不意外。
2009-12-09 @ 01:18
迴響 from: ggckkk [訪問者]
嘉義長庚進修部護理系一年一班某位住在一舍3409號的秀蘭小姐可以不要跟別寢的海琴小姐聊天聊這麼晚嗎?會吵到別人睡覺好嗎? 還有請停止你們那無聊又幼稚的排擠人活動好嗎?請幫忙傳閱

(Lucifer:為什麼有這麼妙的留言?
2009-12-09 @ 02:22
迴響 from: ericc [訪問者]
*****
我來美國13年. 所學到的是美國人大部分都不是所謂那種珍惜上課時間的. 真正會珍惜的都是那種工作後再回來學校的.

而且, 我在大學的時候, 大家都是上課喝飲料吃飯等等的. 老師也沒差, 如果老師會care的話, 也都是第一堂課先說清楚, 學生就會知道. 而不是等學生犯了才不爽等等的來炒新聞.

如果要說什麼尊重, 美國人上課經常都是睡衣睡褲. 幾乎都穿拖鞋上課. 三槍牌wife beater來上課的多的是. 真正會打扮好一點的都是無敵nerd的grad students... XD

這些FOB來美國過了一些洋墨水就回台灣批評不好不好的, 自己也不知道什麼是真正的美國文化. 每個國家有自己的傳統等的. 很多規矩等等的, 不是美國可以用, 台灣就一定可以拿來用... vice versa...開口閉口"美國怎樣..."只是會突顯你自己短視而已...
2009-12-09 @ 02:46
迴響 from: 哈哈 [訪問者]
Yale 的都出現了,那位清華的 CHIEH 怎麼不出來放一下砲?

Lucifer:你應該擔心台科大吧。
2009-12-09 @ 03:53
迴響 from: paramiamo [訪問者] · http://www.wretch.cc/blog/paramiamo
這篇文章,我很仔細的看過了,我連討論也一併看了。 PS. 只要有朱大不合意見的留言,朱老大也一定會再頂回去。你的回覆已經有點是在嗆聲了...反而有點Orz。

首先,這位錢教授有再聯合報新聞提到 (你文章開頭的那篇)我的確有看到 " 美國的學校不準學生帶食物進教室" 這一行字。但是我覺得整篇文章(新聞稿)的重點 我的解釋會是,台灣大學生的學習態度頗讓人憂心,然後錢教授就順手的拿美國比較等等之類的。

所以我覺得朱大你忽略了這篇文章新聞稿該討論的大重點,你只死命的盯著新聞稿中的那行"美國的學校不准學生帶食物進教室" 那行錯誤。死命亂咬。

我覺得這句話是錯的"美國的學校不准學生帶食物進教室"是錯的。 我在英國念過書!! 我不認同,這點我贊成。

但是你異議的方向是錯的。如果你可以prove台灣大學生或教學有相關的例子,讓課堂上一邊吃東西也一邊上課,也有效率的呈現教學內容。或者是台灣也有一些很有趣的教學方式,現在已經在做的工作,有效提升大學生的學習效率。

我想,你的Argue會更有力。

YO

(Lucifer:所以高能物理教授拿美國的月亮比較圓(還是錯誤的)來批評台灣環境,一個阿宅單純說他錯還不行,還得要舉出台灣學習效率哪裡多高的例子。權威發言就是瑕不掩瑜。(筆記)我大學微積分證明題寫不完整就整體錯耶,難道當上高能物理教授證明題就可以亂寫了乎?還有我不能單純享受一下嗆來嗆去的樂趣喔?這樣很好玩啊。
2009-12-09 @ 03:57
迴響 from: nmx [訪問者]
在約翰霍普金斯大學醫學院的醫院(我人在這邊...),上課的時候,不但有人上課吃東西,而且還會跟老師說我肚子餓了要去買東西回來吃...
2009-12-09 @ 04:47
迴響 from: 阿鬼 [訪問者]
(舉手發問)
很多人說吃香雞排會很干擾上課所以不行
問題是我如果買了不吃 味道還是會漂出來阿
所以連教室都不能帶進去嗎??
2009-12-09 @ 06:06
迴響 from: impulse [訪問者]
這些有關學生態度的文章一路看下來我覺得教授們都有點怪,為什麼是重點老是放在上課吃東西?而不是學生交的報告或是寫的論文怎樣之類的(還是因為那樣的話要去收集資料什麼的比較厚工?當然啦比起嘴砲什麼都碼很厚工。)以前還在台大的時候,第一篇成為大學生之後交的專業科目報告,很拼命地找了很多資料,還去比對總圖地下一樓不能借出去的書,就是怕資料有錯,在報告中提出的問題會很笨讓教授不想鳥你,結果批改完畢,跟其他所有直接拿去年學長姐報告檔案複製貼上的人得到的結果一模一樣,一個大勾一個英文字母。就這樣,從此之後那個科目我再也不想認真地去做報告什麼的,得過且過就好。

好像有點離題,但總之我真的覺得用吃不吃東西去評斷學習態度很怪,而且之後讓學生們教授們爭論的焦點都在吃不吃東西上面打轉,然後又要說歪果學生上課都不吃東西的唷什麼的做為比較(也才會出現朱大這篇文),這樣做的意義到底在哪?再者,教授們的權威跟專業,又真的足夠到可以去要求學生們不准這個不准那個不然你就是浪費納稅人的錢或是尸位素餐嗎?

我真的覺得這整個從紅藍開始的新聞串,怪得不得了啊。
2009-12-09 @ 06:21
迴響 from: S.D [訪問者] · http://www.ducknest.com
以前在美國SSU唸書的時候...在上課吃東西很正常阿....重點是不要打擾到其他人就好.

有時候教授還會帶去披薩店上課.....一邊上經濟學,一邊討論披薩厚度....

或是要大家帶菜到教室交換吃....

上課拿電腦進去的也很多....拿電腦進去努力打電動的也有阿....(各種101的課都可以看到這種學生.)

還是...加州不屬於美國的一部份?(大驚)
2009-12-09 @ 08:28
迴響 from: 阿丹 [訪問者]
*****
這件事若用 [程度性] 來看, 也很有趣:
1).極度誇張:
現象: 上課在後面打麻將.
原因: 你總不能說 [老師教得很讚吧!?], 老師至少教得不怎麼樣......而且可確認的是, 學生不尊重這堂課, 主因在於 [價值不足] ==> 難不成上個軍訓課也要 [懸樑刺骨]?
2).普通(鬆):
現象: 上課有學生吃東西, 喝飲料.
原因: 哪個人不會吃喝拉撒啊?
3).普通(緊):
現象: 上課沒有學生吃東西, 喝飲料.
原因: 老師很嚴肅啊! 吃喝會扣分......所以學生只剩下兩個狀況: 1).上課上得津津有味. 2).昏昏欲睡, 忍耐忍耐......
4).非但不能吃喝, 而且要有回應:
現象: 學生舉手發言.
原因: 老師很嚴肅啊! 不發言會扣分!
.
既然學生是一群 [被要求] 人, 那做老師的, 若看不慣, 一切以 [分數] 來處理就行了啊!
It's power game.
出社會, 一樣啦~ 不聽話? 那你就滾啊! 明天給我走人!!
所以, 上課吃不吃東西這事兒, 一點討論的意義都沒有!
2009-12-09 @ 09:01
迴響 from: gp99000 [訪問者]
這讓我想到國高中
不准上廁所,不准吃東西,不准睡覺
結果就是憋著整節課等上廁所
忍著整節課肚子很餓
整節課腦袋空蕩蕩等下課

全都沒在上課
或許上課不做這些事,
真的只是以忽略個人生理需求,來表達對教授的敬意
那種硬扯這代表專注上課的說法就免了吧
直接說做那些事會讓他很不愉快就好,扯那麼多


題外話
說甚麼醫生,納稅人的那個吼
不知道為啥讓我想起前不久那股
"因為教師已經過得很爽了,所以反對他們罷工"

的說法

還說"我反對學生的受教權遭到損害,所以老師不能罷工"

奇怪,管不住學生受教權利,應該是政府要解決
怎麼會是老師不准罷工?

"我有納稅耶"抱歉,你付錢都轉了兩手拉,你的錢說不定都被轉去衛生所那阿
2009-12-09 @ 09:11
迴響 from: QQQ [訪問者]
我討厭不學無術又愛提當年事蹟的老教授=.,=/~
2009-12-09 @ 09:39
迴響 from: [POD] fox (26) [訪問者]
亂入一句

"鐵飯碗,有學術資源,教授忙著發表社論都來不及,哪有時間搞好教育?"

朱大 要不要乾脆組"友民黨"
別管啥灶神了...

(偶像都是被拿來摧毀的)
2009-12-09 @ 10:02
迴響 from: daniel [訪問者]
除了要有獨立思考的能力,要懂得查證、挑戰、分析外,還有一項同樣重要的是"尊重",
那些位高權重的權威教授指著別人家的學生,說它們上課啃雞腿是不尊重,不應該,不知恥,不知道,不三小....的時候,請捫心自問,ㄚ你是尊重這些學生的教授了嗎?你怎知道這學生是不是取得該教授的同意?有沒有可能該教授現在心裡的OS是"干,這是我跟學生的約定,妳這樣一掀,好像是我不會教學生的錯....挖哩勒!
2009-12-09 @ 10:20
迴響 from: zinklink [訪問者] · http://yclin.com/blog/
podcast有沒有RSS訂閱連結阿?
2009-12-09 @ 11:34
迴響 from: gotogame [訪問者] Email
這篇文章的主題既然是:可以不要這麼崇拜武斷的權威嗎?那麼寫文章的人一定很歡迎大家質疑他寫的內容,而且會認真的針對有異議的內容提出回應,不過我想這不包括連文章都沒看清楚或只為了反對而反對的"匿名網友迴響"

為什麼要鼓勵大家挑戰.反對.糾正權威?

因為擔心以後你在電視新聞上,看到某位大家崇拜的專家說:美國哈佛等一流大學學生都很愛吃腐爛的水果,因為腐爛的水果中有種成分叫做nisbachi,經過研究這種成分可以提升智力達50%。"隔天當你在急診室跟一堆吃壞肚子的人排隊等看診時,才又從電視上看到這位專家說:我昨天漏說了一個重點:這是哈佛的愚人節笑話,呵呵呵..."

當你對權威的話毫不質疑時,就算他叫你去吃家禽家畜的排泄物,你也會毫不猶豫的照辦

當他告訴你拿了錢有做事就沒有關係時,你會願意投票給貪污又買票的縣長;當他告訴你我都是為了台灣時,你會願意幫他A國家的錢。當他到美國住在***免費提供的酒店時,你會堅決相信**沒有債留台灣,只是受到政治迫害....
2009-12-09 @ 11:56
迴響 from: 阿威 [訪問者]
個人覺得這篇文章對朱大與朱大的讀友都是很好的鍛鍊。朱大可以從中學習,當你偶有引喻失當,雞毛當箭令,小題大做,草人辯證類的觀點時,受你激發的讀者也是會不留情地加以討伐批評。從這樣的觀點言之,朱大過去對挑戰權威的鼓吹與努力是有成果的,因為你帶出了一群敢挑戰你的讀者。

對朱大的讀者(特別是年輕一輩)來說,如果你閱讀此文的同時仍是不停點頭如搗蒜,不妨靜下心來想看看為什麼有那麼多人的回應說此文走味了。

Lucifer:孩子,你看任何人的任何一篇文章本來就不該點頭如搗蒜。就算全世界的人都都說這篇文章走味了,老子只要覺得好玩還是爽繼續陪著玩啊。
2009-12-09 @ 12:21
迴響 from: 綜合水果汁武士 [訪問者]
**---
說實在話:
(根據鄉民三大運動定律第一點四四條有言:就算在放屁也要寫這四個字開頭求心安)

小弟確實也對本文極度不滿。

"幹正妹圖咧?"
2009-12-09 @ 12:34
迴響 from: 老宅男 [訪問者]
朱大你竟然有給我回喔?
媽哩咧幹沒事啦!不在乎就好
2009-12-09 @ 12:48
迴響 from: Ample [訪問者]
***--
朱大你好
來你這邊看文章已經一年多了~
從Randy教授那篇開始的~幾乎每天來
來你這邊很輕鬆也很開心
總是可以看你最新的時事話題
不過唯一一點小小的請求,請朱大看一下
就是....能不能不要生氣的時候都來句
「幹你媽的..ooxx...」
因為我大學時修過「性別教育」的課
對這些字眼比較敏感...
為什麼總是「幹你媽」,而沒有「幹你爸」....
為什麼總是「媽的」沒有「爸的」
我認為你的網誌是很有影響力...
因此能不能性別平等教育從這裡開始?
我總覺得大部份的媽媽很偉大....
有意無意侮辱女性的字眼是否能少點呢?
感謝您看完我的建議!
ps可以把「媽的」變成「馬的」

再次謝謝您

(Lucifer:根據髒話語意學好像都是攻擊別人真正在乎的事情,所以大家跟爸爸關係都不太好?那我以後多說幾次幹你爸的好了,打字稍稍有點不順啦。
2009-12-09 @ 13:04
迴響 from: 怪醫ED [訪問者]
顯然

人類對上課吃不吃東西這件事
有不同的認知神經

那傳簡訊呢??(遠目)
2009-12-09 @ 13:11
迴響 from: 你說我們能怎麼辦 [訪問者]
*----
庭上:
您的影響力如此之大
在台灣社會中是千萬學子心生嚮往的模範
學生不懂您這篇文章想表達的是什麼意思
是希望提供社會大眾一個反省的機會
抑或是您個人單純的情緒表達

學生會斟酌使用網路資源
但也請停上記著
庭上您是有影響力的人

(Lucifer:你這個庭上好像我不認識耶。
2009-12-09 @ 14:04
迴響 from: 搖搖頭 [訪問者]
*----
朱大的文章中經常幹別人媽媽,真是幹媽媽權威!(拱手)
懇請朱大列舉除了你孩子的媽之外,究竟還幹了哪些人的媽媽?

Lucifer:從你的留言等級來看,可能還不夠多。幹最近怎麼都是這種等級低下的雜兵出現,好歹言之有物吧你。
2009-12-09 @ 14:44
迴響 from: KiDIntOWn [訪問者]
****-
我看了這篇文章後
覺得朱大的本意是要批判那種有崇洋媚外的思想,
以為從外國回來就可以隨便說出不符事實的論述,
書讀得好以及學位做的高, 不代表說的話就是對的
但誠如前幾篇朱大的文章所提,
請讓聽眾們有能夠自我評斷的權利,
大家也要接受朱大在自己的部落格表述自己意見的權利
這是朱大的想法, 也不代表一定就是對的,
也沒有說是錯的, 每個人要有獨立思考評斷的能力
小弟我也是從外地念書回來的,
一直認為台灣本地人才濟濟, 沒有出過國念書,
也是有很多很有見解與想法的人才, 如朱大
真的不要妄自菲薄,
應該要共同營造更好的教育環境與制度,
讓這些有天資的學生們可以更上層樓

ps 我們要避免製造出學習背景差異的對立, 畢竟由外地回來的,很大部分有著對於台灣土地的愛與認同感,都是希望能夠一起為這片土地努力
2009-12-09 @ 14:49
迴響 from: fool [訪問者]
朱先生在小小的台灣島上
即便再怎麼想要以阿宅自居
也是一位有名的阿宅
也是一位上過電視 在很多學生面前演講過的阿宅
如果真想當阿宅
您拼命出來向公眾演講 出來上電視節目幹什麼?
說一句實話
朱先生的立論與主張我個人向來都很贊同
不料今天見到此文 扭曲偏頗 斷章取義
特別是朱先生的回應內容
令人不敢苟同之處更多
乍看之下百思不得其解

略經思考後
唯一較可能的解釋至少有二:
第一
朱先生此人程度人品各方面也不過如此水準
罵別人權威時忘了自己也有一定權威
忘了自己對很多年輕人有影響力
若如此 實是傲慢之極
但此亦非啥大事 訴諸公論誅之即可
第二
其實是朱先生苦心如此
意在測試讀者大眾是否具有獨立判斷的能力
倘若只因是朱先生說的話 發的文章
就照單全收 那與迷信權威有何不同
那群哈大的學生搞不好都未必接受錢的論點了
豈有此篇謬論也應無條件支持的道理
若此假設成立
則上述諸多議論其實亦無須紛擾
這些紛擾與爭論本身
已經足以告慰朱先生一片受人誤解的苦心

除此之外
當然也可能另有他解 此不詳辨
唯想說明一點
在上述回應當中
有人提到朱先生過去文章引用不實一事
朱先生的回應卻說 這麼白爛的資料你也當真
這句話固然也可成立
但若依此邏輯
不僅朱先生過去的演講 發的文章
可能都有問題
未來您所發的文章 作的演講
是否我們也會陷入猶疑
到底您找的這些資料 可不可信
白爛不白爛 我們可以相信您嗎?

您是個有想法 有行動 也已經有影響力的人
應該更加謹言慎行
若感覺責任太重 您可以選擇不扛
若有心做番事 就應更加自律
以上所言 實是出於好意
請見諒




Lucifer:幹,這麼苦口婆心只能送你一句吃屎吧,把我講的話都不加分辨隨便相信的人本來就是蠢,誰叫你聽演講隨便相信?誰叫你看文章隨便相信?誰叫你不加思索沒有分辨能力相信我?眾生愚昧,老子又不拿上帝薪水,幹嘛為自己選擇盲目相信的眾生負責?
2009-12-09 @ 14:50
迴響 from: Hemew [訪問者]
仔細一看標題
既然要送給那位權威
怎不直接寫成信給他啊
2009-12-09 @ 15:19
迴響 from: 老宅男 [訪問者]
對不起我來離題一下,(趁朱大人不在)
樓上幾位大大誤會了,其實在鄉下,我們最親切的招呼方式就是先問候人家媽媽,然後再遞上一根菸,上個月我在海邊,就看到一個阿公幹譙孫子,怕他撿拾回收物被電到,當時我實在有感動到。
被幹譙的朱友社成員,不是每個人都有我這等人文素養,所以旁人無法理解的,其實不用喊燒,沒事的,朱老大又沒幹到你或妳媽。
2009-12-09 @ 16:32
迴響 from: Lloyd [訪問者]
***--
朱大這篇文章內容完全符合他所下的標題,
所以批評朱大此文的網友讓我感到莫名其妙。

這篇文章本來就不是要討論課堂適不適合吃東西,這題目不是三言兩語就說的清楚。

我對這篇文的理解就如標題一樣,至於內容,朱大提出說服大眾勿迷信權威的論證,結果部分網友沒有從標題理解起卻陷入另一個題目(課堂中飲食)的不死迴圈。

請批評的網友回頭看看標題再看看內容,覺得邏輯上有問題再來批評吧!不要只是在可不可以吃東西上打轉。
2009-12-09 @ 16:44
迴響 from: 老宅男 [訪問者]
還有還有,社會上有影響力的人士又不只朱老大一個,憑什麼要他為你負責,為你的子女負責,他又不是票選出來的宅神,我們是不請自來作客而已耶。
朱大有了孩子戰鬥力會暫時減弱的啦,睡眠不足,房事不順是一定的,幹很體諒的啦。
2009-12-09 @ 16:55
迴響 from: wizist [訪問者] Email
To Lloyd,
很多批評的網友並非把焦點放在上課吃東西上,請你看清楚好嗎?

To 老宅男,
你這不就自打嘴巴了嗎?所謂的權威是自己說了算的嗎?照你的邏輯,李洪錢等為什麼要向你負責?我們又何必去挑戰他們?

要挑戰權威,先要有被挑戰的雅量。
2009-12-09 @ 17:08
迴響 from: 老宅男 [訪問者]
TO:WIZIST
1,幹麻挑戰人家?人家又沒惹到你
2,所以錢教授也是有影響力的人哪.冏
2009-12-09 @ 17:16
迴響 from: wizist [訪問者] Email
To 老宅男,

這樣不算挑戰吧?只是忍不住雞婆一下。
那些腦殘的教授也沒惹到朱大吧?那為什麼要挑戰他們?說挑戰也太嚴重啦,只是表達一下自己意見。
2009-12-09 @ 17:25
迴響 from: ral [訪問者]
所謂尊重,我倒是覺得只存在彼此之間,其他什麼怪怪的人跳出來說不好反而很奇怪。(當然,世上總少不了這種人就是了)

老師不認為不被尊重,就算全世界都沒人上課吃東西也沒關系。
老師認為被冒犯,但全世界都認為上課吃東西很正常?
那就看學生要不要尊重對方了。

當然,我的意思並不是光是老師二字就值得被尊重,一個人值不值得被尊重,就又是另一件事了。
2009-12-09 @ 17:32
迴響 from: ral [訪問者]
漏打一行

不過,尊重怎樣的人與不尊重怎樣的人,其實也反映了自己是不是值得被尊重的人。
2009-12-09 @ 17:39
迴響 from: Tohonshinki [訪問者]
我覺得把這些老先生,老太太的嘮叨拿出來當做權威挑戰,是一件非常沒有意義的事情。老實說,那些就是你可以從長輩那邊從小聽到大的碎碎念嘛!有必要好像他們欠了你幾萬塊錢一樣的窮追猛打嘛?弄到現在,很多年輕人講到李家同就是嗤之以鼻,覺得有多不屑似的,但李家同就是一個很愛講大道理,人生大方向,然後有時會講的牛頭不對馬嘴的老人家嘛!年輕人就算真的"盲目的相信了"他講的話,會怎樣嘛?你媽每天在你耳朵旁邊念你都不聽了,會去聽李家同?他品格真的有那麼低下,讓你每次講到他都要明嘲暗諷嘛?朱大您或許才華過人,就算了,那些跟著你一起,聽到李家同就吐兩口口水,譏嘲一番的小朋友呢?他們什麼都還沒學會,就先學會傲慢!另外上次您也嘲笑式的提到熊秉元文章中有學生招待上金錢豹的事,熊秉元原先不管他是什麼台大教授,他在時報出版的幾本法律經濟學的書籍是國內只要是對這方面有點興趣的人,絕對必讀的經典佳作,我不否認我每本都有收集,而且這是我絕對會推荐給人的好書,但在您的"加持"下,我又看到一堆以您馬首是瞻的人跑出來說什麼台灣道德標準低下,教授說一套作一套之類,他們從此再也沒有興趣去認識熊秉元了,講到他心裡大概就是想說:哈,這個說一套作一套,被酒店小姐騙的傻瓜! 要告訴年輕人別挑戰權威,不是用這種方式的,因為您都挑在一些不是重點的地方,唉!!

Lucifer:好啦,那我是應該要跟年輕人講說,挖熊秉元超讚的,應該要多問他關於金錢豹的事情喔?你口中台灣的年輕人並沒有那麼蠢到沒有分辨力,是你想像中的台灣年輕人那麼蠢。
2009-12-09 @ 18:02
迴響 from: 老宅男 [訪問者]
媽的朱大你啥時回來啦,救命ㄚ,別讓我一個勁的幹譙好嗎?
無力中~~~~~
2009-12-09 @ 18:22
迴響 from: 左光紫 [訪問者]
老實說,在朱大的文po出來前,我根本沒注意到錢教授這號人物。
不是說他說的話我沒看過,而是他說的話根本沒法引起我對他的注意。
這些話根本沒啥特別的,倒是google最近的DNS Server比較吸引人啊!XD
老實說,他對我來說還真的是不熟啊。
(所以我昨天特地將20幾分鐘的PODCAST聽了一遍。)
不過如果演講有拿錢內容的正確性卻不怎麼樣,那這個錢就有點浪費啦。
在媒體上寫文章有拿錢內容卻有錯誤也是很不OK阿。
(不過這讓我想到有些雜誌通常都在推銷虛構還希望別人信以為真的知識...唉...)
教書有拿錢內容卻不怎麼樣也就是浪費啦!
(不過這種問題老實說...)
另外我覺得洪蘭這傢伙是挺OK的。
朱大找她成語的碴,令我還滿同情他的。
開認真說話人的玩笑感覺很不厚道啊!
2009-12-09 @ 18:42
迴響 from: Scarface [訪問者]
台灣最噁心的就是這些找機會來塑造自己道德高度的衛道人士,他們最根本的問題是被封建的儒家思想深植殘害已久,我看全世界的華人都逃不了孔子的摧殘,只有程度輕重的區別而已
2009-12-09 @ 18:50
迴響 from: 日出時分 [訪問者]
*****
這篇的焦點是小了點,就在那錢老頭硬要把國外知名大學拖下水,講些與現實有落差的故事。

美其名是想要讓推台灣學生一把,反過來卻是欺瞞大眾。
欺瞞這檔事沒啥大不了的,我們教小孩規矩時都會引用一些善意謊言,只是面對的對象是大學生,大學生還要用謊言來教規矩嗎?

直接當掉就好了啊
直接當掉就好了啊
直接當掉就好了啊~
2009-12-09 @ 18:50
迴響 from: bird [訪問者]
*----
課堂上吃點零食應該無傷大雅,不過覺得這篇實在有點可笑,拉了那麼多「佐證」來支持自己的論點,是要證明「雞腿」==「零食」嗎?好像也沒看到。那麼,吃牛排、滿漢大餐也可以啦!大家認為文中同意課堂上吃點零時的老師,會認同上課吃牛排啃雞腿?這篇論證不及格。下課。

(Lucifer:科科科,滿眼只看到菜單的傢伙的確不需要上課,趕快去吃自助餐去啦。
2009-12-09 @ 19:49
迴響 from: Lucifer [訪問者]
*----
是啊,我讚成版主,
愈是沒有意義的課堂就是要配雞腿,
就像你的文章,我就在配肉粽吃,
一樣的道理啊……

(Lucifer:你們這些看文章不專心在吃東西的網友,還會把重點看錯,真是愧對國家花在你們身上的資源啊!嘿嘿,趕快回去找媽媽反省去!
2009-12-09 @ 20:02
迴響 from: bird [訪問者]
*----
Same here. 只是我沒有肉粽,我是配鳳梨酥吃。

(Lucifer:你們這些看文章不專心在吃東西的網友,還會把重點看錯,真是愧對國家花在你們身上的資源啊!嘿嘿,趕快回去找媽媽反省去。
2009-12-09 @ 20:18
迴響 from: 左光紫 [訪問者]
儒家思想中,還是有一個很讚的人物啊!不過大家好像都不知道他,他的一些文章就算放到今日還是很時尚的ㄚ!
不要一句話就把整個儒家思想棄如敝屣啊!

得對小孩說善意的謊言才能教育他,別以為就真的只能這樣...
2009-12-09 @ 20:28
迴響 from: 老宅男 [訪問者]
救命ㄚ朱大,都是你沒事把大伙胃口養大,要不就是大幅提升眾宅獨立思考能力,現在反過來對付你囉。
你部落格要不要開始收費阿,這樣我也可以開始要求你了。
2009-12-09 @ 20:32
迴響 from: 朱恐龍 [成員]
本篇副作用,眾人紛紛出來呼籲朱學恆負起社會責任,不可說髒話每天要刷牙洗臉和剪指甲還要戴手帕衛生紙!

Lucifer
2009-12-09 @ 22:59
迴響 from: 路人 [訪問者]
*----
看了您部落格的文章與評論,讓我想起陶子姐如何跟他的聽眾辯論;再回來看看您所說的那些話,原來只是個沒甚麼EQ的阿宅在網路上大放厥詞

Lucifer:幹你爸的我超有EQ的你都不懂!逗弄小朋友好好玩呀!
2009-12-09 @ 23:15
迴響 from: Mike [訪問者]
第一次留言...因為實在看不下去了= ="

為什麼現在人(大人小人)的邏輯能力那麼差,連文章的主旨都不知到,就只會望文生義,斷章取義...

建議朱大開一篇跟文字邏輯有關的文章,下一次再有人斷章取義的話,就叫他去先把那篇文章看清楚再來ㄠ
2009-12-09 @ 23:22
迴響 from: Aha! [訪問者]
看了諸多回應與朱宅的回應,有一點感想:

1. 各位要有自己判斷能力,朱宅愛怎麼放砲就怎麼放砲,不用對你們負責。

批:合理。同理可證,洪蘭李家同愛怎麼投書放砲又關你朱宅什麼事?

2. 不用去批評朱宅,因為他也聽不進去,原因同第 1 點。

批:傲慢!?反正朱宅在自己地盤上放砲,如果有對小弟弟小妹妹產生不良影響,是他們自己活該。

3. 朱宅的回覆總是避重就輕,原因還是如同第1 點。

批:朱宅,我知道你會說你爽就好。

4. 朱宅護衛軍還真的沒幾個有腦的。對!那個什麼宅的,我就是在說你!

批:朱宅護衛軍也沒領你們薪水,愛怎麼沒腦就怎麼沒腦。偏偏這些護衛軍,就是你口中盲目相信你文章的人,哈!

5. 不用你朱宅負什麼社會責任啦!純粹對你斷章取義自以為是的行為有意見而已。

批:好多你口中盲目而沒有判斷能力的年輕學子把你當作偶像,卻只從你身上學到自我膨脹的傲慢,這些人自己活該啦!(我可沒要你朱宅負社會責任喔)





(Lucifer:有你這種等級的反對者顯得我很無腦的樣子,叭叭叭叭,抗議抗議,反對者等級過低拖累我高尚的水準!抗議抗議!好啦,跟你不同立場的都是盲目的人啦,你視力最好了啦,撲吃。我有的時候總是在想啊,PO文前可以多想想,不要發廢文啊!
2009-12-09 @ 23:26
迴響 from: 變態阿彬 [訪問者]
to Scarface,

孔子是韓國人哦。他從韓國跑到山東半島周遊
列國… (昨天聽劉寶傑的節目聽到的新笑話)

2009-12-09 @ 23:40
迴響 from: 路人 [訪問者]
>好多你口中盲目而沒有判斷能力的年輕學子把你當作偶像,卻只從你身上學到自我膨脹的傲慢,這些人自己活該啦!
幹,在哪裡?
告訴大家他們在哪裡!馬上烙人出發婊他們!
宅胖沒興趣,其他人有興趣啊!
2009-12-09 @ 23:53
迴響 from: 風子 [訪問者]
卵葩就是卵葩,雞腿就是雞腿,
本就不該相提並論,本篇文章不是在討論卵葩嗎?愈到後面愈來愈多人只看到雞腿而忘記比卵葩,
難道沒聽過「卵葩比雞腿」是嚴重的引喻失當嗎?
2009-12-10 @ 00:08
迴響 from: R2 [訪問者]
*****
除了在一般的研討會裡,美國學校常常會有中午的小型研討會,擺明了就是提供你午餐(常常是披薩)或是叫你feel free的帶午餐去聽,我也搞不懂洪蘭跟錢大教授,這些美國回來的學者,換了屁股,怎麼也換了腦袋。可以Google「seminar and "bring your lunch"」,你可以發現有多少的學生都在尸位素養....
2009-12-10 @ 00:09
迴響 from: 白吃 [訪問者]
事實證明
等級過低的無腦反對者越來越多了喔


(Lucifer:反對者越來越多很好,但都是等級過低的並不是好現象~~~~不禁讓人感到憂慮啊!(憂國憂民狀)
2009-12-10 @ 00:19
迴響 from: Wolf [訪問者]
我最討厭講著中文卻會參雜一些英文單字的人,
你們是中文沒學好?還是英文沒學好?
2009-12-10 @ 00:28
迴響 from: 文若 [訪問者]
我在紐約哥倫比亞大學念書。起碼我上過的課老師都是允許學生上課喝咖啡和吃東西的。有些個年紀較大的老師特別喜歡把訪客送給他們的甜點糕餅之類的在抗堂上分給大家吃,反正他們自己年紀大吃多了也會高血壓。

我大體上同意Suzanne Labadie的話。上課吃東西是老師體諒連趕五六個小時課的學生進食不易,但是食物種類上還是要有點自制,吃點餅乾、沙拉、三明治之類的OK,湯麵、鳳爪之類進食動作和音量較大的食物則會影響到別人上課,最好自覺點加以避免。當然各地國情不同,什麼程度的音量和動作幅度才會影響別人需要因地制宜。
2009-12-10 @ 00:31
迴響 from: 囧星人 [訪問者] · http://maiblog.thx4jp.com/
*****
我承認我每次都是來看某些沒讀懂文章就來發反對言論的人怎麼被炮回去的
2009-12-10 @ 00:33
迴響 from: 命中帶好 [訪問者]
我看到朱大這篇文章的重點是以下這段話 -- " 但真正重要的才不是錢致榕的錯誤引述,而是下一次,當網友或是學生又有機會坐在台下,聆聽這樣明顯武斷、缺乏證據的言論的時候,請你Google、查證、挑戰、分析,並且告知他們!
這已經不再是幾十年前那種台上站了一個國外回來的權威,台下每個人只能低頭乖乖聽話的時代了!
你不敢挑戰、反對、糾正權威,就是你的錯! "
但是跟大部分的人所看到的好像不一樣 !? 我眼睛明明沒有瞎掉 , 腦袋也還算是清楚 , 可是 ...
2009-12-10 @ 00:49
迴響 from: Aha! [訪問者]
我當然知道你最會的就是抓人一個小辮子,就猛力攻擊,把講人的一無是處。但是別人一但跟你有不同意見,你只會傲慢的說你爽就好啦...

那些護衛軍聽著,我並沒有反對本中講的道理 (勇於挑戰、反對、糾正權威),這一點我是肯定的。只是同樣的道理也適用在朱宅身上,懂了嗎孩子?

又,你不把看文章的當蠢蛋,反而擔心聽錢演講的那些人每個都是蠢蛋、沒有獨立判斷的能力,好矛盾啊!




Lucifer:孩子,你提出來的論點要言之成理才會獲得別人的尊重啊。在你到達那種等級之前,是沒有資格要求別人很認真的回應你的。
2009-12-10 @ 00:59
迴響 from: 紫羅蘭 [訪問者]
感覺很好玩!! 這篇文章應該不是說上課能不能吃東西,或是吃什麼東西!或是什麼尊師重道之類
幾乎是所謂的道德問題吧!

只是單純的把那位教授的個人看法給反駁回去而已吧!!

那個新聞稿中的"美國的學校不准學生帶食物進入教室,因為「教室是知識的殿堂」,對於事後幫學生講話的校長、教授,他也感到「心寒」。"

應該是在說"不准"這兩個字吧!!(或許應該請那位教授拿出確切的條文來證明他說的,不然不准那裡不准呢?)

個人覺得拿自己認知美國學校風氣來批評台灣所發生新聞感覺只有奇怪而已~

2009-12-10 @ 01:07
迴響 from: 路過忍不住 [訪問者]
在國外念MBA, 上研討會或群體辯駁討論個案時, 的確是可以看到咖啡餅乾蛋糕一桌桌的放, 因為時間過長, 學生沒有體力可以長時間腦力激盪後做即席報告辯論, 咖啡常常是一壺一壺的補,餅乾蛋糕也是一塊塊的吃! 有時還是學校主動提供的!
但一節課50分鐘甚或只有40幾分鐘,尤其是上專業的課, 預習應付老師,專心消化內容都來不及了, 吃糖果餅乾喝咖啡 提神也就算了, 啃雞腿 吃泡麵是離譜了點...尤其是味道..會影響旁人的! 就算教授不介意, 也要顧及旁邊同學的感覺吧! 而且不要說吃雞腿, 上課遲到 教授臉都綠了 直接叫你不用聽課, 有時候就算教授不介意, 同學也覺得你干擾上課!
學費高低我是不知道其他人怎麼樣,就看過的同學而言,那些拿獎學金或者貸款的同學,的確是比較用功. 因為他們都花了很多工夫才有這個就讀機會.就像在災區,你會浪費食物嗎?
我想表達的是 很多事情不能以偏概全, 而且,或許教授那句美國一流名校都沒有這種情形是指專業課.或者是大部份的情形.
加上這聯合報記者不知道有沒有真實紀錄對錢教授的訪問, 還是自己就這麼寫下. 我想沒有人去問過錢教授吧. 客觀討論及採證,是對他人的名聲負責的態度.
----------------看了第一遍後的感想-
看了第二遍報導,我可以理解朱學恆發這篇文章,並用權威的感受了.加了"教授"的頭銜,講話是武斷了些! 食物如果連咖啡都禁,太扯了點..但上面不小心打太多, 不好意思再繼續打了...
2009-12-10 @ 01:17
迴響 from: B-Elderly [訪問者]
我第一次在朱宅的blog看到所有反方回文都是以自己為社會標準然後當別人都是盲目、智障的框架.....而且妙的是,真的只有框架,弱到連直接人身攻擊的語句都組織不了足夠的內容。

這樣我戰起來很沒力阿~~~~~
2009-12-10 @ 01:30
迴響 from: 白米超人 [訪問者]
****-
在學校吃東西已經變成很普遍的事情了...事實上我認為在教室吃東西很ok,只要不要太囂張就好.....況且....錢致榕教授難道不知道事情沒有絕對的嗎?怎麼敢說這種鳥話呢?...
2009-12-10 @ 01:53
迴響 from: 白米超人 [訪問者]
****-
有句話叫做"盡信書,不如無書" 現在因為蠻多人懶的看書的,所以都請教授來開講座...
盡信教授~不如無教授....我們吸收東西應該是要思考判斷...而不是死命的接收...這樣不只害了自己也可能害了"別人"
2009-12-10 @ 01:59
迴響 from: 哈哈 [訪問者]
@B-Elderly, 你在說什麼鬼話?被鬼檔牆了你難怪沒力!

(Lucifer:就這種經典回文讓人提不起戰意來啊!
2009-12-10 @ 02:09
迴響 from: Breedio [訪問者] Email
很奇怪
"專家們"都罵學生 為什麼沒人規管老師
我以前在台中讀大學時 有老師一邊上課一邊吸菸
也有老師只會抄筆記或念課本
那麼 那些利用時間吃東西 然後筆記用copy的學生
不就是善用資源的人才 因為他們懂得思考不是死讀書
老師們應該先反省自己的授課方式和內容
為什麼沒有泡麵吸引人
2009-12-10 @ 02:38
迴響 from: Number1344 [訪問者]
*****
說得太好了!!!

最受不了每次有人都聽著不知到哪裡來的權威的話蜈蚣盲從

或是盲目的認為所謂高知識分子的教授就是較有見地較有正當理念的人,

每次看到聽到只覺得,噁心!

台灣有些教授跟他們的信眾已經自以為是太久了!!!
2009-12-10 @ 02:41
迴響 from: Eden [訪問者]
小弟在UMN讀書...
學校大約五萬多人左右
多到爆

不過就整件台大這件事來講
我覺得可能是學生態度的問題導致洪蘭的憤怒吧?
雖然我不在現場
可是對我覺得對於教授還是要有一定的尊重
在UMN裡面
可能因為文化的關係
通常不會選擇味道重的食物
因為這樣會讓別人無法專心
所以最多也就是洋芋片 沙拉 小餅乾之類的
而PIZZA這種味道重的(咖啡例外拉 因為大家都不排斥 而且大多都有咖啡蓋 也聞不到什麼)
大多是教授帶來請學生的
幾乎沒有學生會帶subway賽百味XD或是其他味道重的食物來 這不僅是對別人的尊重 同時也是對自己的尊重
當學生有給教授甚至是自己基本的尊重的時候
別人也才會尊重你
如果沒心上課 還不如寄信去給教授說身體不舒服在家休息來得好
不然影響上課情緒個人倒覺得真得不是什麼好事....

想想如果今天朱大你去演講
結果找你演講的人對你不尊重 說些難聽的話
然後台下聽講的人 又自顧自的在那邊玩他自己的東西 不然照鏡子整理頭髮 甚至是在那邊嘲笑你或是打打鬧鬧~一點都不尊重你或其他人的現象
敝人想你應該也會不好受吧ˊˋ

暑假的時候我常回台灣 去找朋友旁聽台灣的大學課程
看到有些學生的態度...和那個一點力都沒有 或是心在外面飄的樣子 還有完全不把教授放在眼裡的態度(目前還沒看到上課吃便當的就是了...)
我多少能感受到洪蘭的憤怒
也能體會台灣學生在夢想方面的空洞無力感
不過我覺得首要的應該是學生要更了解自己
不要太容易被現實和挫折給打敗才是?
2009-12-10 @ 02:49
迴響 from: Eden [訪問者]
恩~~對了 上面大大們說的研討會是別種情況

還有小地上面那篇文章是針對洪蘭事件來講~

並不是模糊焦點 討論朱大討論權威的這篇哦XD

台灣畢竟還是儒家思想影響太重~

很多教授...說真的 也不太值得尊重ˊˋ
2009-12-10 @ 02:54
迴響 from: XD [訪問者]
*****
笑了
好多人都不知道這篇文想幹嘛
閱讀障礙XDD
一堆人在戰能不能吃的點

看不懂得還以為朱大的回應在逃避問題
笑的肚子好痛

看一看變宵夜文了= =

2009-12-10 @ 03:22
迴響 from: oskar [訪問者]
(Lucifer:幹,這麼苦口婆心只能送你一句吃屎吧,把我講的話都不加分辨隨便相信的人本來就是蠢,誰叫你聽演講隨便相信?誰叫你看文章隨便相信?誰叫你不加思索沒有分辨能力相信我?眾生愚昧,老子又不拿上帝薪水,幹嘛為自己選擇盲目相信的眾生負責?)

本來我沒有想回文的, 但是你這一句讓我笑了, 只好回文分享一些跳tone的心得.

最近有一個朋友問我一些人際溝通,工作跟目標的問題
我給了他一些意見, 他執行之後有一些改善(重點是他願意去做, 我認為這是他自己的功勞, 跟我無關), 因此他隔幾天又更深入地詢問一些.
再深入一點, 變成有一些抽象概念的分享了.
說完之後, 我提出了類似朱爸爸你現在這段說法的概念給他.(當然說法語氣不一樣啦)

如果停止思考, 只是要按照權威/專家的說法去做. 遇到問題, 你要不是固執不變通, 要不就是推卸責任, 拒絕成長..etc.

原本的好意, 可能導致比他的敵人更可怕的壞處. 不得不慎.

Henry Ford "Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably the reason why so few engage in it."

丹諾有次替一位教授演化論的老師辯護, 因為那個老師被告有關於信仰的事情.
(本身就是跳tone到不行的的告訴案件)
原告律師代表結辯時說了一段話: ...各位可以想像到, 妳們的孩子學習異端邪說, 失去信仰變成異教徒嘛?...(法庭內鼓掌)

輪到丹諾結辯則說: 我很遺憾各位沒辦法接受孩子的成長超乎妳們的預期, 但是也許就像當初我們的父母看到你我的成長視為一種叛逆一樣, 我們年老的人沒有遏止後代自由選擇與思考的權力...(法庭內大聲鼓掌)

最後, 想當然在當時宗教勢力強大的時代, 丹諾方輸了, 但是搞得沸沸揚揚, 很多記者來採訪報導, 判賠100 USD.

我也不知道這個故事跟現在討論的主題有甚麼關係, 我開始學習不下結論, 請參考~
2009-12-10 @ 03:29
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
*****
幹得好, 不過朱大, 錢自溶長那樣, 幹他媽媽應該不會有什麼快感吧...
By the way, 聯合報會做這種報導很符合牠的報性...基本上跟李厭丘是同一族的....

Lucifer:你很噁心耶。
2009-12-10 @ 05:15
迴響 from: Eugene [訪問者]
我覺得錢先生有一個部分說的不錯。

就是學費貴學生會珍惜講課時間。

不過上課吃不吃東西我認為根本不必討論,教授不讓你吃他自然會跟你說,學不學的到東西也是自己的事情。
2009-12-10 @ 06:49
迴響 from: 老宅男 [訪問者]
to:Aha!
朱先生目前為止不是一傲慢之人,你可以說他號強,尖銳,梵谷,對不起,反骨,甚至說他臭屁,很屌,自我感覺良好(這句收回)
不能說人家對你幹譙就說人傲慢。
2009-12-10 @ 07:39
迴響 from: to:老宅男 [訪問者]
你以為被他幹譙的只有一個?
只要有反對意見就會被幹譙
2009-12-10 @ 07:57
迴響 from: 老宅男 [訪問者]
喂喂
沒錯阿,我也被幹譙阿,你有沒有仔細看?
2009-12-10 @ 08:19
迴響 from: 阿西 [訪問者]
"你不敢挑戰、反對、糾正權威,就是你的錯!"
等你們家朱小胖長大用你現在這種態度糾正你時,你就知道什麼叫頭痛了!

(Lucifer:我又不是典獄長,被糾正有什麼好頭痛的?
2009-12-10 @ 08:36
迴響 from: polo [訪問者] Email · http://sethway.blogspot.com
*****
我認為的重點是:朱宅一貫想提醒專業有其專一性,非領域內的評論往往對一些不思考的人顯示出「月暈效果」的影響。我認為他期待大家有獨立反思的能力,而不只是動腦論說。
2009-12-10 @ 08:39
迴響 from: fool [訪問者]
(Lucifer:幹,這麼苦口婆心只能送你一句吃屎吧,把我講的話都不加分辨隨便相信的人本來就是蠢,誰叫你聽演講隨便相信?誰叫你看文章隨便相信?誰叫你不加思索沒有分辨能力相信我?眾生愚昧,老子又不拿上帝薪水,幹嘛為自己選擇盲目相信的眾生負責?)

謝謝朱先生的回應。

我的回應是:
其實您不斷呼籲的重點是
應有獨立思考的精神,不可盲信權威
這點我完全認同

問題在於
您目前所言內容,
除了「懷疑」之外,請問您還相信什麼?

從另一個角度說
問題的重點根本不在權威,而在於是否經過思考
假若權威說的話,經過一個人的獨立思考
認為合理,自然可以相信
假若不合理,自然另尋出路
這兩者應是並存之事

但在您的論述中
彷彿只有懷疑,毫無相信
這樣的信念推向極端
所有的個體將對於自身以外之人完全懷疑
毫無信任

再者
上述不少回應
強調反對者沒有看清楚朱先生文章主旨
反過來說
朱先生是否也看清楚了錢先生演講內容的主旨呢?
還是只是抓住他一句無關主旨的話
就給他戴高帽子掛鋼絲呢?

吃x、x你爸、x你媽等語
講來自然爽快
但假若您的朱小胖生長在一個
爸、媽動不動就被x,自己動不動就被逼著吃x
只有懷疑,毫無信任可言的社會中
請問是否也是您所樂見?



Lucifer:權威人士難道還應該用最低標準檢驗?說老實話,錢致榕當講座教授這麼大的官,領政大的錢,我幹嘛要相信他?閣下比我離錢致榕近多了,你為什麼不親自去問問他美國大學都不准食物進入課堂是哪來的引述和證據?還是他當庭隨口亂講?與其比較,我還比較相信雞排攤老闆跟我說他今天雞排特別好吃哩。不要動不動就用什麼你生了小孩將來可樂見什麼唧唧叭叭的東西,難道三天兩頭上教堂去慈濟帶手帕衛生紙就可以教出好兒子?~~幹~~


2009-12-10 @ 09:01
迴響 from: 老宅男 [訪問者]
to:fool
吼~兄弟阿,你說"問題的重點根本不在權威,而在於是否經過思考",可是剛好相反阿,問題是錢教授是否教育權威,還是高能物理權威?還有還有,不清楚的腦袋經過思考後仍是無解阿。
至於朱小胖的未來朱大無法回答你,我可以,我在家偶會幹樵,我12歲的兒子卻是異常斯文,還要我基於心理衛生引發他說出來,可是他還是覺得說幹來幹去不好啦,我跟我老婆都不禁止小孩在家罵髒話。

2009-12-10 @ 09:45
迴響 from: Aha! [訪問者]
@老宅男,

你有沒有被幹譙,跟我沒關係。再說,你被幹譙也會跳出來回應,所以你不用說服我被幹譙一下沒關係啦。事實上我也不在意是否言語夾雜髒話,我不會因為髒話廢人。

幹~朱宅是不是傲慢之人不是你說的算,大家自有判斷。朱宅骨子裡跟李家同等沒有兩樣,只是表現的方式不同吧了,朱宅只是另一個李家同罷了。

虧你們三天兩頭的把男子漢掛在嘴邊,不能勇於接受批評、虛心自省就不是真正的男子漢!




(Lucifer:難道我要隨便路邊一個人跟我講你得要摸著良心我就得要自省,那我每天不是要自省幾百萬次?你的論述等級還不到可以要求我自省的程度啦,麻煩多練練好吧。而且你怎麼可以把李家同這三個字當作罵人的話說我也是李家同?這樣我也變成人文關懷權威了耶。
2009-12-10 @ 10:31
迴響 from: 小時 [訪問者]
TO.fool

看了您的回應,想說句:佩服!!

看朱大的文章已經一段時間了,這次也看了文章跟回應

中途看到您的留言,試想,有時我看朱大的文章也想過留如你所述的言論;又,看到朱大炮擊的火力,一方面怯步一方面難過且也不知接下來自已會以如何的口吻面對。

不過您回了,有禮(理)、中肯!

To.朱大

曾經在電視上看過您的一面(還真的就一面),感覺您並不如Blog上如此具攻擊性。附帶一提還蠻想聽您的演講的!!

您的文章並非每一篇說的好!只是不管反對您的言論言之有物無物,均呼應您「不要相信權威」的宗旨,相當奇妙;祝,順心。

Lucifer:在這裡誰都可以戰和反覆思考,這才有趣啊科科科~~~絕對不能因為對方火力大就不戰啊!
2009-12-10 @ 10:56
迴響 from: 小小四技夜校生 [訪問者] · http://blog.xuite.net/ttvs413046/CHOBITS
*****
娘親的上課吃雞腿就要大肆公贛,
敝班在陳大鈞教授面前吃牛肉麵跟便當的不就要拖去槍斃?
(陳教授本人倒是有點想分一口的感覺)

說我是進修部(夜校啦怎樣咬我)所以跟社會有"貢獻"的醫學生還是台大生不能比擬,
請問,默默為社會付出沒三小叮噹路用勞力的技術人員,
跟毫無職業道德,開刀要你命,整天派系鬥爭,把病人當客人看的醫生,
你會尊重誰?

說實在的,都已經大學生了,
教授要苦口婆心的也該是職業道德,
(提醒上課專心沒用,有些能考上"名校"都是上課不專心的人 囧rz)
說上課不要吃東西,你以為你在教小學生喔!
不是學生尸位素餐,是某些教授格局不夠。
(阿就這種上課吃東西打瞌睡的學生考得上台大,
你摔死給他咧?)

同理心,教授不喜歡學生上課吃東西,可以。
但是請不喜歡的點是
"自己嗑不請教授我吃你是他娘親的活得不耐煩了喔?"
同理心,你他娘親的以為學生喜歡在課堂上吃東西?
有時間有地點,誰不想好好嗑完一餐才來上課?
你以為聽你講無聊乏味的課,嘴巴裡的雞腿就會進化成奪命香雞腿嗎?
(不如叫老闆多灑點胡椒粉)

教授不該放大外表上的不專心,
而忽略了該重視的職業道德。
2009-12-10 @ 11:02
迴響 from: ral [訪問者]
尼采說:「與怪物戰鬥的人,小心自己也成為了怪物」
不過我覺得這種話是講給自己聽,而非講給別人聽的,就像孔子很多說過的話一樣。孔子錯在他太倒霉,自己的生活感想被學生偷偷抄下來變成教訓別人的文章。

A 拿石頭亂丟人,B 看了很不爽拿石頭丟A,然後C 看到了就指著B 罵說,你這樣跟A 有什麼不一樣……

基本上C 說的沒錯啦,只是我會覺得C 很無聊就是了。
當然,比較那個一點的是,說不定,A 拿石頭丟的,是另一個亂丟石頭的Z 。
2009-12-10 @ 11:05
迴響 from: 老宅男 [訪問者]
to:Aha
你看朱大有多麼愛你,都苦口婆心說這麼多了,一個傲慢之人不會這麼愛你的。
2009-12-10 @ 11:30
迴響 from: Aha! [訪問者]
@Lucifer,
怎麼每天會有幾百萬個路人要你自省啊!?
說你像李家同,怎麼你就認為被罵了呢?
要先附和你,才能達到你所說的等級嗎?

@老宅男,
別搞笑了好嗎?

@ral,
我真的很無聊,這裡無聊的人也不少啊...

(Lucifer:那你怎麼跑來奉承我是李家同,更是可恨!幹,滾!老子不需要你這種愛奉承我是李家同的軟腳蝦!順便秀一下簽名檔!

2009-12-10 @ 12:01
迴響 from: Aha! [訪問者]
懶得跟你玩了,加油點好嗎?

(Lucifer:今天學到的事,沒想到打你那種等級的回應還要用腦想還會累,驚人!


2009-12-10 @ 12:34
迴響 from: ninny [訪問者]
好像錯過了很多好玩的東西......囧"
2009-12-10 @ 12:54
迴響 from: Part time 讀者 [訪問者]
*----
身為一位求學時間前半段在台灣, 後半段在美國的中西合體思想產物, 我認為這事件是關於

1. 禮貌和尊敬
父母訓話時小孩忙著打電動看也不看,愛理不理的是不是很欠揍? 等你當父母時候發生時妳就能體會~ 同樣的,老師在用心教課時有學生忙著進餐/睡覺/上網/打電話是不是很機歪?(朱大請你想想你演講時如果這樣的話). 等你當過老師時妳就能體會(或是被老師當掉時你也就會知道了) 這是以錢致榕和洪蘭的角度看此案.

吃便當滿離譜的. 乾脆下次直接訂外賣到教室?
我覺得吃些咀嚼時安靜,氣味不重的食物或零食填肚可以接受. 因為你要想到花錢來上課受教育的不只你一個人, 其他同學可能會被你進食當中發出的聲音和食物的味道影響到他們的學習過程. 這是以其它在課堂上的某些同學的角度看此案.

2. 在什麼地方就該做什麼事
有人會在廁所裡煮飯進食嗎? 有人在餐廳廚房裡拉屎撒尿嗎? 有人在大庭廣眾當街洗澡撿肥皂嗎? 有人在圖書館裡大聲喧嘩追逐嬉戲嗎? 我想一定有~ 但你覺得正常嗎??!! 你認為對嗎??!!

3. 要搞清楚你在誰的地盤上
你在公司敢為所欲為,然後跟老闆嗆聲說你邊看電視邊打報告是兩回事不會相互影響? 公司是老闆開的她說的是聖旨,你不遵守會被開除~

你在爸媽的家敢坐在客廳當她們面開始拉K/抽麻/嗑搖頭丸嗎? 在家爸媽講的話是聖旨,你不遵守他們會叫你滾出去~

你在黑道幫派區域裡敢隨便嗆聲黑道老大,然後跟他說這是你的人權/言論自由嗎? 在黑道的地盤裡老大說的是聖旨,你不遵守會吃拳頭/棍棒/開山刀/子彈~

同樣的
你在課堂上,老師/教授說的話是聖旨,你不遵守會被當掉~

朱大之前有很多看法立場我非常認同,但如同朱大所講的 "你不敢挑戰,反對,糾正權威,就是你的錯!" 在朱大的部落格裡,朱大是權威,但是我不反對/挑戰就可能是我的錯.

在美國的大學生是真的有多數的學生要自己賺錢付學費. 比較起來,美國大學學生珍惜上課機會的學生比台灣多很多很多.
王丹留學於美,我也留學於美,但我不認同他的看法. 尤其是他拿咖啡跟便當/雞腿來比較,差異太大. 假如他說帶一盤牛排/義大利麵/火雞腿去吃 (合乎美國民俗,等於台灣的便當/雞腿) 那還有點搏版面. 但你去跟任何一個美國人說你要帶牛排/義大利麵/火雞腿去課堂上吃,他的反應絕對是和洪蘭/錢致榕一樣,覺得這是 ridiculously disrespectful and unheard of (荒謬的不尊重而且從沒聽說過的) 我建議各位可以試看看端盤義大利麵去任何間美國大學課堂上,絕對會被教授和旁邊被影響到的學生機歪到死. 但是零嘴飲料絕對是司空見慣.

朱大po 的 Bella English "Manners missing in the classroom" 很明顯的是在批評這種不禮貌不尊重的行為. 美國人是非常注重禮節的,他們光在餐桌上就有很多 table manners 了(用餐禮節). 餐具還分頭檯,主菜,甜點等來用.你有看過美國人排隊像某些台灣人是爭先恐後的橫著排的嗎? 同樣的你會看到美國人在課堂上吃牛排/火雞腿嗎?

洪,錢 引述的美國民俗風情雖然不代表全美國學生和教師但絕對是代表絕大部分的美國人. 他們的錯是在用詞不當, 太過果斷的語氣. 但是朱大對此事的見解有代表絕大部分的台灣師生嗎? 朱大如果說"全台灣人都愛吃米飯" 比較能代表絕大多數的台灣人.

畢竟小弟我一半人生在台灣度過,另一半是在美國過活. 證詞有些公信力. 此案恐怕不是如此
簡單的可以宣判結案退庭. 威武~~~ 冤妄阿~!!!
2009-12-10 @ 12:59
迴響 from: myukaka [訪問者]
救命啊~~~~

不要談什麼挑戰反對了,怎麼那麼多人連文章主旨都搞不清楚@@光看頭尾也可以知道啊,一堆人在講吃的是怎樣啊~~

閱讀力為何會低落至此......
2009-12-10 @ 13:08
迴響 from: 宅心人厚 [訪問者]
推oskar兄說的:
開始學習不下結論。

to 夜校生
"不是學生尸位素餐,是某些教授格局不夠。
同理心,教授不喜歡學生上課吃東西,可以。
但是請不喜歡的點是
"自己嗑不請教授我吃你是他娘親的活得不耐煩了喔?"
同理心,你他娘親的以為學生喜歡在課堂上吃東西?
有時間有地點,誰不想好好嗑完一餐才來上課?"

所以您的邏輯是,教授應該同理某些學生吃東西的需求。學生可以無視某些教授對於學術殿堂理念的堅持?

to Part time 讀者
朱宅整篇的主旨不在於東西方哪邊的學生吃東西比較合理啦...
而在於,錢先生明明挾權威人士光環,在非專業領域說出來的話卻是如此不嚴謹而武斷,而恐造成一干盲從者有錯誤引用與聯想的空間。

to 朱大的某次回文
(Lucifer:在這裡誰都可以戰和反覆思考,這才有趣啊科科科~~~絕對不能因為對方火力大就不戰啊!)
在這裡,就屬您的火力最大呀,阿這裡就布著阿宅反抗軍的結界呀!
密室裡三個和尚禁語打坐時,
第一個和尚忍不住脫口而出:蠟燭要熄了。
第二個和尚抱怨道:你為什麼說話了?
第三個和尚微笑:只有我沒有說話。

靠!我為什麼說話了?
(路人甲:靠!為什麼打坐得禁語...)
2009-12-10 @ 13:34
迴響 from: 希達戈 [訪問者]
聽說國父紀念館模式又再度出現了
趕緊來參觀一下

其實呢,我覺得看不懂這篇文章的人應該都有一個共通點,
那就是-他們都沒玩過"逆轉裁判"
所以當他們一下子接受到關於逆轉裁判的資訊時
接收的資訊會自然變成亂碼,不然就是一片空白(因為是日版的)
我小時候玩日版HG字幕也都是空白的啊(不過我還是破關了)
SO.請沒玩過的人快去玩玩看吧
不然你應該也看不懂我上面打的是甚麼。

話說,當我大學老師上課時對我們說,奇幻文學是科幻小說的衍生產物,是二流的文學作品時,我不能對這種武斷的偏見提出反例嗎?
更何況那個老師根本沒看過奇幻小說。


偶爾到戶外走走果然對身體很好,有助於血液循環。
2009-12-10 @ 13:51
迴響 from: wizist [訪問者] Email
我想很多人都看的懂這篇文章的內涵才對,就是因為看的懂,也認同,所以才對朱大「挑戰、反對、糾正權威」吧。朱大用上課吃東西的議題來反錢老的權威,這裡許多網友也同樣用上課吃東西這個議題來反朱大的權威。(在這裡朱大是權威,應該沒多少人有意見吧?)因此,表面上看起來有很多討論吃的留言。

只要不耍無賴,真理越便越明。

(什麼是國父紀念館模式啊?)
2009-12-10 @ 14:18
迴響 from: baabuu [訪問者] · http://www.plurk.com/baabuu
***
to wizist

關於(什麼是國父紀念館模式啊?)

請參閱:
http://blogs.myoops.org/lucifer.php/2008/06/09/blogs
2009-12-10 @ 14:33
迴響 from: godmanhand [訪問者]
我想,朱學恆想表達的,真的在文章中說得很清楚了。

看完了所有的留言,我又再回去重看一次這篇文章,這篇文章其實一丁點也沒說錢教授是個○○、△△或是其它。
而是在告訴看的人,其實你去網路上google一下,就能知道這位教授說的這件事是不真實的。

表示他完全沒有經過任何考證手續或是任何求證動作,這只是錢教授個人的一己之見,大家可以看看就好不要想太多。

為此朱學恒作了一些舉證,但這些舉證的重點不是在於反對錢教授,而是要證明這篇文章說的
「錢教授的說法沒有經過求證」。
當然如果信不過朱學恒這人,大家大可以再去查證他的文章引用來源和可信度,但這種事情請麻煩自己去幹吧。

錢教授和朱學恆都不用為了任何人能否獨立思考和實事求是負責,但是他們兩人和你我同樣有權力去查證權威說的話有沒有根據和真不真實。

今天朱學恆只是作了一件他本來就有自由做的事:去查證一下另一個權威說的話有沒有根據。
在我看來這篇文章就是這麼普通,朱學恆寫得好不好我不清楚,但我知道這篇文章的意思就是這樣。

今天會把這篇文章看成在攻擊錢教授或是跟菜單、吃飯尊不尊師重不重道有關的人,恕我直言,可能有點太過血氣...文章沒看懂。
不然就是對朱學恆這人本來就很有意見,立場確定了再來挑毛病;除此之外,我實在想不到樓上那些出言譏刺這篇文章的人還有什麼意圖。

我這人比較無聊,還去解釋我對這篇文章的看法和解讀,事實上只要看標題,就能懂了不是嗎?
所以樓上那些人的留言我反倒不懂了...
2009-12-10 @ 15:39
迴響 from: 小小四技夜校生 [訪問者]
to 宅心人厚

所以您的邏輯就是只要台下乖乖點頭認同教授對於學術殿堂的堅持就是值得嘉許的學生?
吃雞腿、便當就是該提水桶反省的學生?

問題不在吃東西這種形而上的表面,
問題出在學術殿堂理念的堅持並不是教育最重要的地方,
上一篇回覆被您看重的只有尸位素餐那一小段,
有沒有職業道德您就覺得無所謂?
對於學術殿堂的堅持比這個學生出去是做好還做壞重要?


to Part time

您真是位幸運的人,

第一,"你在課堂上,老師/教授說的話是聖旨,你不遵守會被當掉~"
好幸運,您的教授或老師沒有用聖旨叫您去吃...您討厭吃的料理。
(這樣我您可被當,因為我連自由思考跟決定的權利都沒有)

第二,"假如他說帶一盤牛排/義大利麵/火雞腿去吃 (合乎美國民俗,等於台灣的便當/雞腿) "
好幸運,您所在的區域或學校學生餐廳都提供這麼高級的"便當"。
一般看美國片都是油炸品、三明治還是水果之類的當午餐,無想到合乎美國民俗竟是如此高級!
(還以為影片都會誇大,沒有想到是謙虛了,筆記)







P.S:在別人的blog用像主人的口氣回覆其他訪客的文章,好吊詭的感覺XD
2009-12-10 @ 16:00
迴響 from: 老宅男 [訪問者]
to:wizist
你又錯了,朱大在這裡不但不是權威,還會耍無賴。
放輕鬆點,當純娛樂。
2009-12-10 @ 17:19
迴響 from: 小king [訪問者]
雖然我是隱藏版。不過以上戰的實在太熱。所以只好出來探個頭。

朱大這篇就是在說「人不要相信權威」啊,例子就是引用「時事」的反駁,有何不可。我想朱大本身沒有對「上課飲食」這件事發出任何意見。

其他很多大大,都在說「上課飲食」是不尊重老師......之類的云云。這不就是偏離事情的重心了嗎= =

我覺得「不能相信權威」,但是我也不會想說「上課光明正大吃東西」是合理的。樓上很多大人都說了,是「態度」問題。認真到教授讓你吃,而不是你吃到讓教授認真吧......

閉氣去
2009-12-10 @ 17:45
迴響 from: 綜合水果汁武士 [訪問者]
*----


幹戰破兩百多篇還是沒有貼正妹圖!

這樣可以嗎?

2009-12-10 @ 18:37
迴響 from: ninny [訪問者]
所以我們還在雞腿便當的結界裡面嗎?
我以前都吃排骨飯的縮─W─

2009-12-10 @ 19:20
迴響 from: ninny [訪問者]
TO:狗汁

快把你的正妹圖交粗來啊XDDDDD!
2009-12-10 @ 19:21
迴響 from: 路人 [訪問者]
>認真到教授讓你吃,而不是你吃到讓教授認真吧......
NICE呀這句

這篇後面比平常High 我好喜歡!
2009-12-10 @ 19:32
迴響 from: JENNY [訪問者]
看了這麼一大堆留言
發現現今很多人閱讀&表達能力真的不足

發送迴響之前,能否先仔細逐字想想別人的語義為何,以及自己的話語有無不通、不當處?

不然只是流於無謂的筆戰罷了

唉……
誰來救救我們社會的國語文能力啊~~
我也好想喊:救命哪~~~
2009-12-10 @ 21:28
迴響 from: BigMac [訪問者] · http://blog.udn.com/freshbird
****-
拜讀大作
佩服您向權威對抗的勇氣
只可惜「講得還不夠味」
所以我做了點「補充」:
http://blog.udn.com/freshbird/3576711

(事實上,我文章後面還想寫的部份是:
你麗山高中校長如果真關心學生「為考試而讀書」的情形的話,
可不可以先把你們的數學考題出簡單一點啊?
只可惜找不到麗山的考卷貼在部落格上做證明
不曉得朱大有沒有辦法找到?)
2009-12-10 @ 21:58
迴響 from: 66666666666666666666666666666666666 [訪問者] · http://funny-everyday.blogspot.com/2009/11/66p.html
****-
不影響他人
我覺得還好
在教室吃泡麵就過分了點.
2009-12-10 @ 23:37
迴響 from: 路人 [訪問者]
幹,你為什麼可以吸到這麼多對你充滿敵意的生物

多到都湧進別的web去哭爸了

(Lucifer:男人就是要有越多的敵人才顯得出自己的強悍!可惜這些傢伙都太弱了,不能彰顯我的強悍啊!
2009-12-11 @ 00:03
迴響 from: Brett [訪問者]
*----
挑錢教授的一句話來當成挑戰武斷權威起點
何必呢
人類行為的敘述用邏輯(若A則B)來闡述,本來就很容易舉反例,

報導文中強調數次有關台灣學費以及家長對於支應子女教育的態度,是兩個影響學生求學態度的重要關鍵,卻不能引起大眾省思才是讓人擔憂的地方

(Lucifer:喔喔,你要不要打聽一下錢教授在台灣領了多少該花在學生身上的教育經費?然後再來思考一下這個傢伙到底是不是值得尊敬哪。
2009-12-11 @ 00:05
迴響 from: 人必自重而後人重之 [訪問者]
TO: Eden
**********************
同意+1

TO: Part time
**********************
同意+1

洪蘭教授大概是恨鐵不成鋼,覺得國際競爭如此激烈,但台灣有學生未感受到這股壓力,浪費生命,也浪費國家資源,所以才會把話講得這麼重吧!?不過並不是台大的學生都是這樣的,有禮貌又認真的學生大有人在,那不過就是某些學生的
態度輕浮而已,這樣的說法是有點一竿子打翻一船人.

回應樓上某些網友,不是看不懂朱宅神的文章,事實上朱宅神所疾呼的"不要太過相信權威"的觀點,我是舉雙手贊成的,不過就這件事而言,如果洪蘭教授文章所言的是事實的話,像這種行為說真的完全不會讓我想替這些學生說話的.而且這事情的起頭是因為天下雜誌這篇文章開始的,不是嗎?所以才會一直在這裏著墨,而沒有針對朱宅神的文章回應.

文章中提到:已經打鐘了,有學生才姍姍來遲;進來後,有人吃泡麵、啃雞腿,或打開電腦看連續劇、趴在桌上睡大頭覺,打手機、傳簡訊的情況更不用說.遲到的同學不是悄悄在後面找個位子坐,而是大剌剌走到他座位的那一排,叫坐在外面的同學起來讓他進去,絲毫不尊重同學的上課權。不要告訴我一個紀律鬆散的人可以成就什麼好事,很多事情是由小見大的,一個人一旦習慣養成後,將來到職場上要改也沒那麼容易.團體生活本來就要互相尊重,每個人或多或少都要犧牲一些,那有人包贏不包輸,(以個人便利為己任,置他人權益於度外)一個連基本的尊師重道都做不到,不顧他人同學的感受,凡事只圖自己便利的人,這種人將來鐵定也是個麻煩.
事實上在我們讀書時代,從來也沒老師禁止同學吃東西過(除了電腦課之外),也沒有人教過我們,但是真的很少人會在上課吃東西,就算要吃也沒人會明目張膽地吃,通常也都是等到下課後才吃,就連飲料都會放在地上,以免桌上瓶瓶罐罐不好看.更何況是打手機,打開電腦看連續劇這種荒唐事務,稍微有點公德心的人都不會這麼幹的.

有些人覺得教授不值得尊敬,然後呢.....所以我們幹嘛要尊重教授,是這個意思嗎!?覺得教授行為不當可以向校方投訴,而不是比爛的吧!?一個授沒有顯現出一個教授應有的樣子,不代表學生也要跟著做吧.

洪蘭教授說:"如果不想讀,何不把機會讓給想讀的人呢?"我覺得這句話說得太有道理了,希望台灣教育當局要思考一下,不要再以成績來當作入學的唯一標準吧!開個管道,讓有心有熱忱但成績可能無法上醫學院的人也有機會讀醫學系吧.唯有熱忱的人才能全心投入,就像日本建築師安藤忠雄,一個高中畢業的拳擊手,沒有受過正規的大學教育,憑著對建築的熱情,最後終於成為名滿國際的建築大師就是一個最好的例子.



(Lucifer:無奈的是目前沒有熱情評鑑這檔子事。
2009-12-11 @ 00:06
迴響 from: blueeros [訪問者]
大推 godmanhand 的回應~

"錢教授和朱學恆都不用為了任何人能否獨立思考和實事求是負責,但是他們兩人和你我同樣有權力去查證權威說的話有沒有根據和真不真實。"

"今天朱學恆只是作了一件他本來就有自由做的事:去查證一下另一個權威說的話有沒有根據。"

許多人提到食物 上課尊重以及東西方教學文化的差異 這到底跟這篇主題有和關係呢??

閱讀能力 邏輯 自我判斷 還有幽默感 應該是看朱大網誌的所需要具備的吧
2009-12-11 @ 00:19
迴響 from: 名無 [訪問者]
>>Lucifer:男人就是要有越多的敵人才顯得出自己的強悍!可惜這些傢伙都太弱了,不能彰顯我的強悍啊!

您真的這麼想嗎...這種想法是不太成熟的...


(Lucifer:男子漢的浪漫是不需要他人理解的!
2009-12-11 @ 00:22
迴響 from: Brett [訪問者]
無奈

如果我的文字要解讀成尊重這位錢教授

還是無奈



Lucifer:如果我拿的是本來該給學生有更好教育的經費來當講座教授,就沒什麼資格說這些學生浪費資源了對吧。因為這部分的錢學生沒用到,這筆錢是錢教授領走啦~~~~
2009-12-11 @ 00:25
迴響 from: 路人 [訪問者]
>您真的這麼想嗎...這種想法是不太成熟的...
如果你把那個視為個人生存價值觀的結果就不會有成不成熟的問題了

問題是他的敵人多到都流進別人家裡了!幹!我真的哭了!

(Lucifer:又不是我叫他們流過去的,大家不來我這邊戰我也沒辦法啊!你看我什麼時候砍過文,心情好的時候還陪大家大玩特玩耶。媽哩,結果到處留言的(自封)敵人還有那種懷疑我會派殺手去殺他的貨色,這樣根本就降低我的等級啊!
2009-12-11 @ 00:35
迴響 from: ian [訪問者]
熱情的評鑑?

文章發表後,台大不容許除了優等以外的成績

據說
倒是在背後給洪蘭教授熱情的對待..

這就不是權威ㄇ?

很多台大的學者、學生..扛著最高學府的扛棒,不願意給別人的尊重,

跟屈服權威比起來

是放天平兩端的維持平衡ㄉ爛蘋果
2009-12-11 @ 01:18
迴響 from: DC [訪問者]
*****
世界上,該尊敬的是真理是非
而不是權威
講的對,大家就接受
不對,就算是出自權威的口
還是屁!

上課能不能吃零食,交由授課的教授決定就可
他覺得可以,你就可以吃
旁人無權說三道四
他不許,你就不要吃
根本不用如此大張旗鼓放大台大學生上課吃零食的問題
洪蘭如果看到台大學生上課吃東西,
那代表兩種可能
一是那位教授准許(或默許)課堂上吃東西
(那洪蘭就該閉嘴!)
一是他不准學生吃零食,但不想制止或無力制止
(前者是該教授的問題,那該檢討的是那位教授,不是學生!)
我才不相信
都當了大學教授了
這種事還要別人來指導

還有,西方人比較不習慣吃帶骨的肉,所以很難看到他們會在課堂上吃雞腿。話說回來,只要教授同意,吃洋芋片和雞腿都差不多,不要歧視雞腿!
2009-12-11 @ 01:45
迴響 from: ninny [訪問者]
海賊王已經被衛生署點名吸煙畫面太多了XDDDD!接下來就是獵人太暴力了XDDDDD!
2009-12-11 @ 08:13
迴響 from: 上杉宏信 [訪問者] · http://blog.yam.com/fffa2008
吃什麼東西
我想並不影響什麼上課之類的

不過這樣好不好看
大家見仁見智
許多事情 沒必要去禁止
只是需要大家互相尊重而已

還有 自我感覺良好 這點是真的
在此的人可以打我槍
但是 這是事實


2009-12-11 @ 09:10
迴響 from: 我只是個路人 [訪問者]
會上課吃雞腿,不就是肚子餓到不行,要不然就是教授上課很無趣兩種。
權威這個種東西,要有人捧它才起的來,如果覺得他講的沒道理,不理會它讓它像流水文章一樣洗掉不就好了?
我想得太簡單了嗎??
2009-12-11 @ 09:49
迴響 from: 宅心人厚 [訪問者]
to 夜校生:
所以我的邏輯是我們既該尊重那些允許學生在課堂上飲食的雍容大度的教授。
也該尊重那些不允許學生在課堂上吃東西的嚴格教授。
他們做出這個決定的背後一定都有形成因素,我們沒有道理用這個來判斷教授優劣。我們也沒資格一昧的要求教授應該同理學生的想法,而自己不去同理教授的用心。
至於上課飲食的學生們對不對的起自己的學習態度。我沒資格批評,這應該是當事學生自我評價。我們負責的對象是自己,不是隨著別人的鼓勵或批評而起舞。學生只需要做出覺得對的事情,然後雖千萬人吾往矣。而不是明明很在意別人的評價卻又用一堆理由與藉口去自我感覺良好。

您說:
"上一篇回覆被您看重的只有尸位素餐那一小段,
有沒有職業道德您就覺得無所謂?
對於學術殿堂的堅持比這個學生出去是做好還做壞重要?"
我的回覆是:
就像一堆人評朱宅的理由是放大一個點,而忽略錢教授要說的面。
我的作法也是,
在一大篇文章中,發現一個錯誤的前提,我就會去針對性的議論它。
當然對您所說的後面的重點,我是極為讚同的。
2009-12-11 @ 10:48
迴響 from: 搖搖頭 [訪問者]
常看記者或主持人當著您的面宅神來宅神去的,
既然否認造神,卻又任由主流媒體將您神格化,您有出言『糾正』嗎??
好像沒有看到厚?
(主流媒體算是某種程度的權威吧)


鐺鐺鐺~~~~
2009-12-11 @ 12:25
超cool

邊聽"The Phantom Of The Opera"

當聽到

My power over you

grows stronger yet ...

熱血阿~~

阿宅反抗軍頭,加油加油加油!!!
2009-12-11 @ 12:39
迴響 from: julyun [訪問者]
你批評別人武斷,
自己卻容不得與你不同的主張或反對的論調,
不也是武段與傲慢?

(Lucifer:容不得?你啥時看到我砍文了?還是你在作夢?這個低落的等級已經低過了閱讀能力障礙的狀況了。
2009-12-11 @ 21:57
迴響 from: 老陳 [訪問者]
不需要為了衝人氣
故意寫這種文章
有腦的人都看得出

朱姓版主出身中央
我看也未見學生多麼認真
還是咱台大學生用功
請看這篇貴校中央大學教授的文章
http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/jw!nDQ2ll.RGBLVC4xqDJbU_OEQ/article?mid=1266&prev=1304&next=1256&l=f&fid=19


Lucifer:衝人氣哩,就說你們這種連文章都寫不通順的反對者拖累了我的等級啊。還要假裝台大學生,這倒底是自卑還是沒自信啊?
2009-12-11 @ 23:09
迴響 from: 老陳 [訪問者]
不需要為了衝人氣
故意寫這種文章
有腦的人都看得出

朱姓版主出身中央
我看也未見學生多麼認真
還是咱台大學生用功
請看這篇貴校中央大學教授的文章
http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/jw!nDQ2ll.RGBLVC4xqDJbU_OEQ/article?mid=1266&prev=1304&next=1256&l=f&fid=19

(Lucifer:挖,感覺你手抖了又連續貼了兩三篇耶。是不是假裝台大學生不習慣?
2009-12-11 @ 23:15
迴響 from: 老陳 [訪問者]
不需要為了衝人氣
故意寫這種文章
有腦的人都看得出

朱姓版主出身中央
我看也未見學生多麼認真
還是咱台大學生用功
請看這篇貴校中央大學教授的文章
http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/jw!nDQ2ll.RGBLVC4xqDJbU_OEQ/article?mid=1266&prev=1304&next=1256&l=f&fid=19
2009-12-11 @ 23:16
迴響 from: 老陳 [訪問者]
上次的回應
怎麼被版主砍掉了
真想哭.....

(Lucifer:你應該問說為什麼自己手抖貼那麼多篇啊,老子從來懶得砍文的,特別是我秉持著爛文大家笑的理念啊!
2009-12-11 @ 23:25
迴響 from: 我愛朱宅 [訪問者]
不好意思!
我跳針的問一下在阿宅反抗軍那段錄音中的英文插入歌是哪首啊?
那首很好聽可以解答一下嗎?

Lucifer:文章裡面有寫喔!
2009-12-12 @ 14:51
迴響 from: APERTURE [訪問者]
或許教授真的是出自一片好心來講我們的教育議題.只是引用錯誤資料.但是這點是身為一個高級教職人員不該犯的錯.這會誤導大眾!我們政教界的大哥們都有一些大問題.就是說話不經大腦!自大!傲慢!認為自己就是教育!自己就是一切!一定要晚輩走自己所訂的制式道路!我們的教育也是這樣!一切都是制式.還不知道問題所在!改來改去都是制式!被定型的學生出社會當然沒競爭力.無法面對變化多端的全球化社會.也不知道要從歷史中學道教訓.看看明朝清朝.完全的制式教育制度(雖然我們沒那麼誇張).搞到最後是怎樣?官員個個無能.當外國人來時只能當槍靶.可悲的是.那些被制度訂死的人是永遠無法靠自己走出來的.早期被定型的人.到了外國去.也沒幾個人能省悟.就像某人所說的:小孩太(乖)是壞事.一個(乖)小孩的創造力往往都比不上一個趕挑戰權威的小孩.(ps請不要把這句話當成作壞事的理由.)因為大部分人所認為的(乖)其實就是一個制式的規範.要你怎麼作你就怎麼作就會加冠一個乖字.而挑戰權威的?就被冠上了皮這個字.有的還被稱做是壞.這擺明就是要我們從小跟著制度走.或許這條路在早期會很好走.但是這條路會讓我們思想僵化.失去創造力跟想像力.別忘了.我們現在的社會職場上最吃香的就是創意產業(或許這點可以拿米奇鰻來當例子吧)
2009-12-12 @ 21:40
迴響 from: hjk [訪問者]
這是典型的搗蛋文。

這種煮飯上課討論的課,它在美國大學中的地位就好像數學系裡教「數學與人生」(數學與人參,大補丸啦),這種課在多有名的學校也有,這不是光google就看得出來的。

甚至有老師開這種課,受到學校關切,剛畢業沒有tenure的老師更不敢開這種課。大家心裡有數,這種課是沒升等壓力的教授才敢開。美國人很nice,學術界上不欣賞這種現象也不會說出來。

我所唸的美國學校上課的確有人吃東西,但那位有名的美國老師對此也很不爽。美國學生的確也很珍惜上課時間,我教課時常常有學生來跟我說他想聽什麼內容,希望我教。或者問清楚我教的範圍才來選課。

當人家說美國人如何如何時,當然不是指100%如何,你這是在挑人家的毛病。照你這樣幹,什麼言論都無法在網路或報紙發表。

(Lucifer:喔帥喔,所以你也是用同樣的標準在說台灣人如何如何嚕?這年頭的教授呀,只需要享受尊敬,不需要負擔對等的責任,怎麼這麼爽?
2009-12-13 @ 03:17
迴響 from: APERTURE [訪問者]
搞啥阿~~~為啥大家都在討論上課吃東西阿~~~這篇主題不是在於引用錯誤資料.亂下結論.武斷的濫權威到處亂放炮.又不對自己言論負責的問題之上嗎?怎麼大家都在吃阿.還討論吃啥勒.真是............
2009-12-13 @ 15:49
迴響 from: 懶叫比雞腿 [訪問者]
懶叫比雞腿
上課啃雞腿又不是上課含懶趴。
2009-12-13 @ 19:41
迴響 from: 我愛朱宅 [訪問者]
(Lucifer:文章裡面有寫喔!)
科科! 不好意思!
我還是找不到,可以請朱大直接公布歌名嗎?
謝謝!
2009-12-14 @ 01:17
迴響 from: joearc [訪問者]
錢致榕是用吃雞腿來說明學習心態的不同
就算可以吃雞腿,一樣吃雞腿,學生心態不一樣

朱學恆是探討到底有沒有吃東西
有吃東西,東西是不是雞腿, 吃的東西一不一樣

(而且雞腿很麻煩,油油的)


2009-12-14 @ 10:49
迴響 from: 幹你媽! [訪問者]
*----
反正在這裡所有的言論都不用負責嘛!

所以,講粗話、辱罵任何一個人還不簡單?

幹你媽的朱學恆!只會幹來幹去!都不知道你在為誰而幹!懂不懂你他媽的邏輯啊?

講了一大堆的屁話!
幹你祖宗十八代!最好你兒子趕快起來反抗你這個權威跟你老婆一起生另外的朱小胖出來!





(Lucifer:孩子, 140.119.23.40 不就是個政大IP嗎?貴校的教育讓你連說理都不說了,有這麼熱心的幹字擁護者真是讓人敬佩啊!
2009-12-14 @ 11:04
迴響 from: 荷包蛋 [訪問者] · http://friedeggsrice.blogspot.com/
政大好樣的,
出不容異己,髒話連篇的?學生/職員/教授??
(只知IP來自政大,不知道到底是什麼身份)

想到關於臺大:
博士虐貓,碩士約炮,學士射精在飲料,畢業的貪污關在牢。台大最近的運氣真不好~~~

現在出了位「政大蔣幹兄」,
果真不負名校風範,與臺大相比不遑多讓耶~
厲害厲害!佩服佩服!
2009-12-14 @ 11:56
迴響 from: 無知鄉民 [訪問者]
朱老大回應到後來有點太激動了,寫了這麼久,應該早就知道躲在水裡暗幹一槍的小人沒什麼好在意的。至於一堆批評朱大引用資料的人,好好複習一下如何證明若P則Q不成立吧!
2009-12-14 @ 12:21
迴響 from: Guest [訪問者]
樓樓上丟政大的臉...
2009-12-14 @ 12:26
迴響 from: guest [訪問者]
說錯,是樓樓樓上...
2009-12-14 @ 12:26
迴響 from: Allen [訪問者]
****-
這些偽衛道人士指責朱大的出發點就是認為朱大是神吧,才會整天擔心朱大污染我們清純可愛的學生們,到底是誰在造神?
朱大也就是塵世中一個迷途小書僮,跟那些講座教授、野火燒不盡爛書吹又生的暢銷作家相比,朱大不過就是個在自己的部落格和噗浪上說自己想說的話而已,竟引來小子鳴鼓而攻之,我相信朱大絕不認為自己有那麼了不起可以和講座教授平起平坐來討論比較,我想講座教授和野火燒不盡爛書吹又生作家如果能有朱大一半的拼命,到每一個被既得利益者和權貴菁英遺忘放棄的高中職、大學輪番演講,也就是跑校園,他們絕不敢自稱自己瞭解台灣的教育,亂引用美國來批評,就好像台北市長突然出來說台東應該建迪士尼才能像香港和上海一樣有競爭力,台北有哪一點可以跟人家比?同樣台灣(的)大學是哪一點那根蔥可以跟哈佛比? 人家就是權貴,光用銅板就砸死你。(哈佛的申請表有一整頁都在問你認不認識國會議員有沒有親戚在內閣做官,認不認識下列名人等等,幹!我看完就知道不用填了。)這種比較本來就沒道理,台灣(的)大學要幹嘛自己決定就好了,你幹掉哈佛又怎樣?還不是要還?台灣(的)大學難道沒有超級認真讀書嗎?有啊!有人大三就以第一名考上律師耶!現在在幹嘛?
朱大替動新聞講話或對抗講座教授的斷章取義,顯示言論自由與批判精神的重要,這也是學生最需要的精神,要批評先到各縣市看看那些被遺忘的高中職學生吧,看看他們要不要跟美國比?
2009-12-14 @ 13:18
迴響 from: wizist [訪問者] Email
To Allen,

你這樣說不大通喔!權威的話可以挑戰,迷途小書僮的講的就不能反駁嗎?說這裡大部分的「反對者」是衛道人士並不恰當 (衛什麼道?),充其量只是用朱大同樣的觀念來質疑朱大而已,這不也是言論自由的表現嗎?有什麼好不爽的?

從另一方面來想,就算那些權威教授引證錯誤、斷章取義,那又怎樣?他們講述的道理並沒有什麼錯,聽了他們的話就會變壞嗎?小時候我們還不是聽了很多不切實際但教人為善的寓言...

後面怎麼覺得有點「金包銀」了呢?
2009-12-14 @ 15:04
迴響 from: 潛水員A [訪問者]
大學生的閱讀與邏輯能力之退化...
這比較讓人心寒吧...
2009-12-14 @ 15:11
迴響 from: 有事請教 [訪問者]
朱先生:可以請你寫一篇何以需要在文章、plurk開口閉口說髒話的分析文嗎?謝謝!!

(Lucifer:幹,因為我是低俗的人。幹。
2009-12-14 @ 15:44
迴響 from: godmanhand [訪問者]
引用wizist:
從另一方面來想,就算那些權威教授引證錯誤、斷章取義,那又怎樣?他們講述的道理並沒有什麼錯,聽了他們的話就會變壞嗎?小時候我們還不是聽了很多不切實際但教人為善的寓言...
---------------------------------------
看來等級已經低落到耍賴的程度了...0.0
如果在下的解讀沒有錯,朱學恆並沒有任何攻擊錢教授的言語。
(除了只需要享受尊敬,不需要負擔對等的責任,怎麼這麼爽?算是有評論「行為」之外)

如果不信,盡管調回去看他的blog內文,通篇沒有說「錢教授是壞人」吧?(證明這位學術權威武斷發言跟壞人應該是扯不上任何關係)

這篇blog文完全就是在講「可以不要這麼崇拜武斷的權威嗎?」
(就是題目那一行字,應該不是只有我看得到吧?)
跟吃雞腿或三明治、尊師重道或是睡大覺、學生認不認真或有沒有救,都沒有任何關係。

我覺得大家看文的時候還是平心靜氣點,才不會讓自己丟臉。
2009-12-14 @ 18:38
迴響 from: wizist [訪問者] Email
godmanhand:

是不是邏輯也退到小學生以下的程度?還是故意要曲解原意呢?從我的留言,應該不難看出我並沒有特別去反對朱大,也沒有支持錢教授,只是就我觀察版上爭論提出看法而已。

也請你看清楚一點囉...
2009-12-14 @ 19:15
迴響 from: godmanhand [訪問者]
wizist
對於一個會耍賴的人,我想也不用多保留什麼禮貌了。

我說難聽點吧,你正確想表達什麼干我屁事?
我又不是你國文老師,怎麼還要對你的表達能力負責嗎?

我回應就是針對你「那又怎樣...」那句話
你連這個都看不懂我還有什麼好說的?

還特別回個兩句澄清?
我可沒有在誤解你什麼,只是覺得你的耍賴特別可笑所以忍不住提一下而已。
2009-12-14 @ 19:26
迴響 from: wizist [訪問者]
godmanhand,

你的水準只有這樣,也沒必要跟你多說了... 去
2009-12-14 @ 21:51
迴響 from: 一塊錢 [訪問者] · http://devilmen.blogspot.com/
*****
這篇很熱鬧阿。。。
2009-12-14 @ 22:13
迴響 from: meso [訪問者]
*****
這裡好久沒這麼熱鬧了
看來網路上果然有很多人想來幫老朱衝人氣耶
2009-12-14 @ 22:28
迴響 from: B-Elderly [訪問者]
這篇熱鬧是很熱鬧,可是讓人沒什麼戰意阿!

這麼多篇戰文中,反方程度最低劣的大概就是這一篇了,仔細看看這麼熱鬧的爭論中,反方的論點是啥吧:

1.連標題都看不懂。
2.連命題都看不懂。
3.連證明法都看不懂。
4.專注在菜單。
5.專注在髒話。
6.權威講錯化也沒關係,也不用負責任,只要他立意為善就好。

這樣程度只能引起我手癢留幾個字,怎麼戰法?如果洪大教授、錢大教授指導出的上課乖乖牌、讀書讀到心中有典範的擁護者都這種程度,我真他媽的慶幸沒跟擁護者同一國~~~
(ps:洪大教授若是說一些親子教育的發展方法,我是很樂意受教的;同理,錢大教授若願意提供科技方面的指教,我也是很樂意聽講滴,可惜~~~~)
2009-12-15 @ 09:06
迴響 from: Adam [訪問者]
*****
朱大回我的留言...
朱大回我的留言...
朱大回我的留言...
朱大回我的留言...
朱大回我的留言...
2009-12-16 @ 02:13
迴響 from: 老頭 [訪問者]
**---
朱大
我認為這篇有關錢教授的報導,重點應該是要台灣的大學生們開始自省,花費四年的大學生活,是不是學習到相對的價值
也許是今天的台灣上大學太容易,也太輕鬆了,所以大學生並沒有自覺能夠進入這個大學的殿堂,是需要花費多少的社會資源與從家庭的經濟支持
如果今天朱大只是議正嚴詞的強調上課吃東西並沒有錯,只是引經據典的抨擊對方發言不夠嚴謹(確實),那我認為朱大的這篇網誌就太膚淺了一點
的確!!對方用了不適當的引述,但是我也沒看到朱大的這篇網誌裡,用了什麼正面的言語去提醒現在的大學生這些總總該要有的自覺
當然,朱大有在網上開砲和表達你意見的權力,然而我相信朱大的演講,網誌和思想模式都會影響到許多的年輕學子們,如果只是一味的強調那些不正確的細節,卻忽略了該提醒的重點,換個角度想想,朱大的言論不也是另一種武斷的權威嗎??
錢教授的一堂課,底下坐的不過就是數百人,然而朱大的一篇網誌,就吸引了超過三萬人的閱覽,我是衷心的期望,朱大你能用更寬大的心胸,來評論這些社會事件與新聞人物
2009-12-16 @ 12:27
迴響 from: shou [訪問者]
嗯...個人的一點淺見
國外的教育重視你有沒有真的學到東西
所以不拘小節,誰管你在課堂上吃喝拉撒睡?
君不見火鳳燎原的司馬懿講過啥名言?
「吃跟睡才是我的強項啊!」
人家光靠吃跟睡
就可以成就奪取天下的智慧呢(大誤

反觀國內嘛...就是強調表面功夫
明知道台上老師講的是一堆廢話
但就是得逼學生做出一番認真聽講的乖小孩模樣
正襟危坐,眼神專注在黑板與筆記本上
出社會之後,這些人都可以是一群很稱職的演員
但不用期待能對社會有什麼突破性的貢獻
反正大家都曉得,做好表面工夫我就餓不死了
誰還關心我腦袋裡裝啥(茶
2009-12-16 @ 12:45
迴響 from: Chris [訪問者]
to 老頭

嗯, 同樣的邏輯, 身為公眾人物的朱大應該要謹言慎行, 身為讓人景仰的教授不用?

嗯, 同樣的邏輯, 朱大應該用更寬大的標準來評論人與事, 諸位教授在公眾場合評論學生卻不用?

喔~(恍然大悟)
2009-12-16 @ 22:15
迴響 from: Jake [訪問者]
我個人是沒在課堂吃過東西 下課是會吃啦 日間部 上課都很正常 剛進大學 教計概的教授就說 想要上廁所就自己去不用像高中那樣報備 但是 教會計老師就不一樣 上課還是要班長來一套什麼起立敬禮 想來也很好笑 因為我高中後就沒做過這種事了 當然上課吃東西也不是這篇文章重點 而是說什麼果斷的話之前 要先查證就是了 記得有句話是說 吾愛吾師 但吾更愛真理 又一個對話是如此說的 阿加頓說:我不能反駁你,蘇格拉底,讓我們假設你說的都對好了。 蘇格拉底:阿加頓,你該說你不能反駁真理,因為蘇格拉底是很容易被反駁的。 真理是越辯越明的 真理也絕對不是權威的附屬品...
2009-12-17 @ 16:19
迴響 from: 阿秀 [訪問者] Email
*****
我想是否允許學生可以在教室上課中吃東西這件事,有很多點可以談,比方說"尊重"或”禮貌”這些,也可以討論教室規則...等等。但最讓人受不了的是這種:「國外的什麼什麼都不會怎樣,那像台灣的都怎樣怎樣。」的說法。比方說國外的學生打工賺學費認真念書、台灣家長當孝子,讓學生靡爛過太爽什麼的。我老覺得很多長輩老愛說現在的學生或年輕人變成怎樣怎樣,當年他們多強有多好,卻忘記影響這些學生或家長對教育(or 工作)的態度,不也是你們這些現今在各行各界所謂的大頭、權威、老板、領導者、掌權者、批評者...所搞出來的嗎?還反過來責備學生or年輕人呢?所以說國外的和尚會念經,是因為他們後頭總是有一堆喝過洋墨水的土蛋在旁邊幫他們助念。
2009-12-18 @ 17:38
迴響 from: 小板 [訪問者]
*****
我想反而是大家失焦了!
朱大所要表達的重點並不是在於上課可不可以吃雞腿這項議題.....
而是一個國外留學回來的客座教授,必須注重它的言行,這樣胡亂的引用,的確帶給大家錯誤的印象,一個學術殿堂,被神格化了,吃個雞腿又如何,如果有研究指出課堂吃雞腿會大量的增強思考能力,那在課堂上吃雞腿還會不神聖嗎??大家不必盲目崇拜權威,權威說出來的話大家也有挑戰、反對、糾正的權利,並不是權威說的就是對的,難道它放出來的屁就會是香的嗎!!!

小板

2009-12-20 @ 00:06
迴響 from: 雲林人 [訪問者]
看到"台大"學生為洪蘭的"看不慣"之鳴
攪舌根且積極為自我辯護
實在感到很悲哀
2009-12-21 @ 20:23
迴響 from: K [訪問者]
權威人士、政治人物一句話就能引發很大的效果,
對於那些看到言論先選擇相信,而不是先「思考」的人來說尤其是。(我覺得到是不需要完全的不信任或懷疑,但至少人們要會「思考」)

如果不思考,有大可能事情會變成:
某家長對孩子說:你看,教授說人家美國人上課都不吃東西。
某老師對學生說:你看,教授說人家美國人上課都不吃東西。
學生對自己說:你看,教授說人家美國人上課都不吃東西。
所以即使肚子餓得要死,也還是會考慮到教授傳達的「價值」,甚至是「道德」,而選擇不去做那件事。這就是權威的力量吧。

我認為有「權力」的人說話是該小心的,而聽者也有「權利」對言論思考以及合理質疑。

如果不(雖然我相信人類應該沒有那麼笨),但群體低智商以及權力人士操控人民的事情就會發生。

權力人士的言論內容,我認為倒不是什麼重點,雞腿可以替換成爆米花、豬血糕、色情漫畫、宗教刊物、某些高熱量高糖高鹽的食品、香煙、咖啡、巧克力....(某些已經確實地發生在活中了)

看完這篇心裡只有一個想法,只要懂得思考,就能減低許多被操控的機會,減低權力濫用對人們生活的干預,就能得到應有的自由。




2009-12-28 @ 10:55
迴響 from: ray chen [訪問者]
感覺好像抓到了一個小辮子就得意洋洋到不行
這樣好嗎?
道理可以好好說,當然也可以氣急敗壞的說啦...
2009-12-29 @ 12:23
剛好逛到一位台大醫科生對這件事情的看法
http://miaooooooo.blogspot.com/2009/12/blog-post.html
如果尸位素餐也可以向那位當事者一樣...那我也要尸位素餐.....
2010-01-04 @ 01:15
迴響 from: icedark [訪問者]
我認為錢先生的態度錯在用國外例子比台灣(我們周遭充滿這種言論,有營養嗎?)何況舉的例子跟實際狀況有差.
而版大不是反對錢先生的言論就代表版大支持上課吃東西.
結論,可悲的台灣人看太多政論,不論上至精英下至平凡人,都在玩你反反我, 我反反你的遊戲.
2010-02-10 @ 21:15
迴響 from: digico [訪問者]
****-
Eating during class is a privilege, not a right.... 在課堂上飲食不是權力,而是特許的例外。

此處"right"應為權利,而非權力(power)
2010-02-20 @ 06:07
迴響 from: 醴釀 [訪問者]
...那我那時侯上小組課教授帶了瓶紅酒過來強迫學生喝酒是......||||
而且對不起我半杯紅酒還沒喝完就被說渾身酒臭orz
2010-09-10 @ 11:48
迴響 from: HL [訪問者]
我推"還有,幹你媽的不要再說我自己搞什麼鬼造神運動了,你他媽的沒有實力和膽識挑戰我難道是我的錯?"有本事自己就在中正紀念堂辦活動,不要在網路搞阿Q.
2010-09-10 @ 11:53
迴響 from: moon [訪問者]
唉,朱先生的言論真是越來越離譜,
人家講的是"吃雞腿",朱先生就硬是要舉一些輕微的"喝咖啡","吃零食"來反駁,
"吃雞腿"與"喝咖啡"差很多好嗎,
雞腿的味道比咖啡惱人,而且啃雞腿的動作會很大,視線也必須不斷注視雞腿等等...
連那種老師請學生帶食物來邊吃邊討論食物的例子也能拿出來舉例,
而且"吃雞腿"是人家舉的例子,重點是要學生珍惜上大學的機會,
結果朱先生把"吃雞腿"當成人家的重點來痛打,
舉一大堆外國上課也吃東西的例子,
唉,懶得再說了...
2010-09-10 @ 18:00
迴響 from: asd [訪問者]
(= =留言剛剛不見了,只能重來..)
to:Scarface
孔孟思想在漢武帝獨尊儒術的同時,
融合黃老陰陽,本身又被加加減減,已經不純粹
已不是一開始有批判力有骨氣不愚忠的儒家本脈
有時間可以重讀孔孟的言論和生平,
(盡量是文言文版本)
應該可以有跟學生時代不一樣的體會...
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